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Jonmac, I'm guessing your recollections of enhanced wiring in Italian and
Swedish Triumphs dates from your time in export sales in the 1960s, yes?
Do you have any ideas what models might have been covered? Did the
addition of a lot more fused circuits go back as far as the TR2-3A models?
Thx,
Don
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:42 AM Don Hiscock <don.hiscock@gmail.com> wrote:
> As usual, Jonmac's recollections are gold dust. I hoard every scrap!
> (Thanks for 'em, John!)
>
> Does anyone have an Italian TR2-3A wiring diagram? These must have
> existed originally, yes John?
>
> Rdgs,
>
> Don
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:01 AM John Macartney <
> John.Macartney@ukpips.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I think Dave Massey is spot on in highlighting the things that can go
>> wrong with old looms. He=E2=80=99s also correct in saying the cars were =
built to a
>> budget and I=E2=80=99d add they were never built to last as long as so m=
any have.
>> Ten years was the engineered life expectancy. Dave is also prudent to
>> comment on the very limited number of fuses for the US market. However,
>> it=E2=80=99s worth pointing out that in the days of yore, cars bound for=
Italy and
>> Sweden had completely different looms. IIRC, Italy spec cars had 12 main
>> fuses and Sweden a few less. Sweden also banned the plating that was use=
d
>> on all hardware and fasteners and insisted on another form of plating.
>> Trouble is, I can=E2=80=99t remember what it was now. So, if you=E2=80=
=99re planning on a
>> new loom, get one made in Italy to original spec. Magneti Marelli used t=
o
>> have a subsidiary that made them.
>>
>> Jonmac
>>
>> At the Battle of Waterloo, 1815:
>> Lord Uxbridge: =E2=80=9CBy God, Sir - I=E2=80=99ve lost my leg=E2=80=9D
>> Duke of Wellington: =E2=80=9CBy God, Sir - so you have!=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>> On 24 Jun 2020, at 15:52, bill beecher <notakitcar@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I counted, I only have two(2) fuses on my =E2=80=9858 TR3. Where might=
the
>> other be?
>> Thx,
>> Bill B
>> TS30800L
>>
>> Serenity Now......
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2020, at 9:38 AM, DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> Keep in mind that these wire harnesses, like the car as a whole, was
>> designed to a budget. These harnesses had three (count 'em, 3) fuses. =
As
>> such some items were unfused like the headlamps and the coil. And those
>> things that are fused shared a fuse so the fuse had to be sized to carry
>> the current for everything on that circuit. But the wires were sized fo=
r
>> the particular load. A thinner wire will have a nigher resistance and
>> under short-circuit conditions the current can be limited to a level th=
at
>> will not blow the fuse but the current will cause enough heating to caus=
e
>> the insulation to melt.
>>
>> Another factor against us is the age of the harness. The connector
>> contacts get corroded and will get hot under normal circumstances. Wire
>> strands can fatigue and break within the insulation again resulting in
>> overheating under normal use. The insulation gets stiff and cracks
>> exposing the wires within. Lots of potential failure modes here.
>>
>> Compare this design to those found in modern cars you will see dozens of
>> fuses. Sure there are a lot more electrical items but most things have
>> their own fuses. This means you can size the fuse more appropriately fo=
r
>> the wire used to power that device. Also the connectors used are water
>> tight and don't corrode as quickly. Also, they are, on the whole, a lot
>> younger and therefore retain more of their original integrety.
>>
>> But a fresh works well enough so if you fear a melt-down a new harness
>> may be a good investment.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bill beecher <notakitcar@yahoo.com>
>> To: Tom Householder <trhouse@columbus.rr.com>
>> Cc: Triumphs@Autox.team.net daily digest <triumphs@autox.team.net>; FOT
>> List <fot@autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2020 8:52 am
>> Subject: Re: [TR] TR2-3 electrical melt downs
>>
>> Have a friend with a TR6 that had a significant meltdown behind the
>> dash. I should think, given the right set of weaknesses, most any secti=
on
>> could melt.
>> Bill B
>>
>> Serenity Now......
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:52 AM, Tom Householder <trhouse@columbus.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFOver the years I have experienced and seen harness melt down in=
the
>> looms to the tail lights .. anyone ever had an under dash melt down?
>>
>> Trying to answer a question asked of me.
>>
>> Tom
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/notakitcar@yahoo.com
>>
>>
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
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>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/john.macartney@ukpips.org=
.uk
>>
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>
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>>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Jonmac, I'm guessing your recollections of enhanced wi=
ring in Italian and Swedish Triumphs dates from your time in export sales i=
n the 1960s, yes?=C2=A0 Do you have any ideas what models might have been c=
overed?=C2=A0 Did the addition of a lot more fused circuits go back as far =
as the TR2-3A models?<div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div><br></div><div>Don<=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:42 AM Don Hiscock <<a href=3D"mailto:don=
.hiscock@gmail.com">don.hiscock@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">As usual, Jonmac&=
#39;s recollections are gold dust.=C2=A0 I hoard every scrap!=C2=A0 (Thanks=
for 'em, John!)<div><br></div><div>Does anyone have an Italian TR2-3A =
wiring diagram?=C2=A0 These must have existed originally, yes John?</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Rdgs,</div><div><br></div><div>Don</div></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 24, 2=
020 at 11:01 AM John Macartney <<a href=3D"mailto:John.Macartney@ukpips.=
org.uk" target=3D"_blank">John.Macartney@ukpips.org.uk</a>> wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">I t=
hink Dave Massey is spot on in highlighting the things that can go wrong wi=
th old looms. He=E2=80=99s also correct in saying the cars were built to a =
budget and I=E2=80=99d add they were never built to last as long as so many=
have. Ten years was the engineered life expectancy. Dave is also prudent t=
o comment on the very limited number of fuses for the US market. However, i=
t=E2=80=99s worth pointing out that in the days of yore, cars bound for Ita=
ly and Sweden had completely different looms. IIRC, Italy spec cars had 12 =
main fuses and Sweden a few less. Sweden also banned the plating that was u=
sed on all hardware and fasteners and insisted on another form of plating. =
Trouble is, I can=E2=80=99t remember what it was now. So, if you=E2=80=99re=
planning on a new loom, get one made in Italy to original spec. Magneti Ma=
relli used to have a subsidiary that made them.<div><br></div><div>Jonmac<b=
r><br><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7600439952344253050gmail-m_-4421259331991928085Ap=
pleMailSignature" dir=3D"ltr">At the Battle of Waterloo, 1815:<div>Lord Uxb=
ridge: =C2=A0=E2=80=9CBy God, Sir - I=E2=80=99ve lost my leg=E2=80=9D</div>=
<div>Duke of Wellington: =E2=80=9CBy God, Sir - so you have!=E2=80=9D</div>=
<div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On 24 Jun 2020, at 15:52, bill be=
echer <<a href=3D"mailto:notakitcar@yahoo.com"; target=3D"_blank">notakit=
car@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">I counted, I only have two(2) fuses on my =E2=80=9858 TR3. =C2=A0=
Where might the other be?<div>Thx,</div><div>Bill B</div><div>TS30800L<br>=
<br><div dir=3D"ltr">Serenity Now......</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Jun 24=
, 2020, at 9:38 AM, DAVID MASSEY <<a href=3D"mailto:dave1massey@cs.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">dave1massey@cs.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div> <font size=3D"3">Keep in mind that these wire harnesses, like the car=
as a whole, was designed to a budget.=C2=A0 These harnesses had three (cou=
nt 'em, 3) fuses.=C2=A0 As such some items were unfused like the headla=
mps and the coil.=C2=A0 And those things that are fused shared a fuse so th=
e fuse had to be sized to carry the current for everything on that circuit.=
=C2=A0 But the wires were sized for the particular load.=C2=A0 A thinner wi=
re will have a nigher resistance and under=C2=A0 short-circuit conditions t=
he current can be limited to a level that will not blow the fuse but the cu=
rrent will cause enough heating to cause the insulation to melt.</font></di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">Another factor against us is the age of the harness.=
=C2=A0 The connector contacts get corroded and will get hot under normal ci=
rcumstances.=C2=A0 Wire strands can fatigue and break within the insulation=
again resulting in overheating under normal use.=C2=A0 The insulation gets=
stiff and cracks exposing the wires within.=C2=A0 Lots of potential failur=
e modes here.=C2=A0 <br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">Compare this design to those found in modern cars you=
will see dozens of fuses.=C2=A0 Sure there are a lot more electrical items=
but most things have their own fuses.=C2=A0 This means you can size the fu=
se more appropriately for the wire used to power that device.=C2=A0 Also th=
e connectors used are water tight and don't corrode as quickly.=C2=A0 A=
lso, they are, on the whole, a lot younger and therefore retain more of the=
ir original integrety.</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font size=3D"3">But a fresh works well enough so if you fear a melt-d=
own a new harness may be a good investment.</font><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: bill beecher <<a href=3D"mailto:notakitcar@yahoo.com"; target=3D"_b=
lank">notakitcar@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: Tom Householder <<a href=3D"mailto:trhouse@columbus.rr.com"; target=
=3D"_blank">trhouse@columbus.rr.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:Triumphs@Autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">Triumphs@A=
utox.team.net</a> daily digest <<a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>>; FOT List <<a href=
=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>>=
<br>
Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2020 8:52 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] TR2-3 electrical melt downs<br>
<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Have a friend with a TR6 that had a significant meltdown b=
ehind the dash.=C2=A0 I should think, given the right set of weaknesses, mo=
st any section could melt. <br clear=3D"none">Bill B<br clear=3D"none"><br =
clear=3D"none">Serenity Now......<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">On J=
un 23, 2020, at 4:52 AM, Tom Householder <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mail=
to:trhouse@columbus.rr.com" target=3D"_blank">trhouse@columbus.rr.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=EF=BB=BFOver the years I ha=
ve experienced and seen harness melt down in the looms to the tail lights .=
. anyone ever had an under dash melt down?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"n=
one">Trying to answer a question asked of me. <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">Tom <br clear=3D"none">** <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:triump=
hs@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **<br clea=
r=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.=
team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>=
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