Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem

[Roger Elliott <elliottr@rmi.net>]

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I decided to give up on the issue.

There did not seem to be much of a voltage drop across the battery - 
about .05 volts as near as I could make out.  It's possible that either 
the meter or myself were not quick enough to read accurately.

As far as I could tell there is not a ground terminal on the sockets.  
There was about .009 volts between the lamp housing and the battery.  I 
did run additional wires from the lamp housing to a ground (to the tank 
mounting bolts).

The brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals, in opposition, 
got brighter when the turn signals were off.

Tested the lights with regular brake lights instead of LEDs. I noticed 
the brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals. This is when I 
decided to give up and just live with it.

Oh, the third brake light that I have wired in - power from the brake 
lights and grounded to the body flash when ever the brake lights and 
turn signals are on (like the brake/tail lights in opposition.

Thanks for your help.
Roger

On 11/3/2019 4:37 PM, Randall wrote:
>
> Yes, thatâ??s the idea.  You want all the lights on (including turn 
> signals) during this test.
>
> What youâ??re looking at is how much voltage drop there is through the 
> ground path.
>
> -- Randall
>
> *Sent: *Sunday, November 3, 2019 1:26 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem
>
> HI Randall,
>
> Thanks for the information and the tests.
>
> I just want to check something on the tests since my electrical 
> trouble shooting ability is very limited.
>
> This section is also done with the lights on, right?:
>
> To check for grounding issues, I suggest running a wire to the 
> negative battery terminal or negative starter cable, so you can 
> connect the ground lead of your DMM to that.  Then you can probe at 
> the rear lights, to see how well they are actually grounded.  0.2 volt 
> is probably acceptable, anything more than that represents a problem 
> that could be fixed.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Roger
>
> On 11/2/19 4:07 PM, Randall wrote:
>
>     There may not be a good solution, Roger. The incandescent turn
>     signals draw a fair amount of current, which is likely more than
>     the stock alternator can deliver (along with tail lights and so
>     on) at idle.  So it may be that the battery voltage is dropping
>     from 13+ volts (alternator supplying all power to car) to  12.6
>     volts (battery supplying some of the power) and the LEDs youâ??re
>     using are sensitive enough to show the difference in voltage.
>
>     To check, connect a good voltmeter or DMM to the battery, then
>     watch what it does when the tail lights and flashers are both on. 
>     If Iâ??m right, youâ??ll see the battery voltage sag in time with the
>     turn signals.  The only fix would be to convert to a more modern
>     alternator, that can keep up with the lights at idle.  (Iâ??m not
>     certain, but I think there is a Lester unit that would look and
>     fit the same as the stock Lucas but give more current across the
>     board.  Check with the Jaguar folks.)
>
>     Another fix might be LEDs that use an active current source (so
>     are much less sensitive to supply voltage), but I have no idea
>     where to buy such things.  I made my own using a simple
>     2-transistor active current limiter.
>
>     To check for grounding issues, I suggest running a wire to the
>     negative battery terminal or negative starter cable, so you can
>     connect the ground lead of your DMM to that.  Then you can probe
>     at the rear lights, to see how well they are actually grounded. 
>     0.2 volt is probably acceptable, anything more than that
>     represents a problem that could be fixed.
>
>     Iâ??m not sure how the TR250 tail lights are wired.  On my TR3, all
>     the rear lamps ground only through their mounting screws, which go
>     into clip nuts fastened to the sheet metal.  Very insecure,
>     especially if the sheet metal has a fresh coat of paint.
>
>     However, each lamp has a terminal inside the housing for a ground
>     wire.  So, I made up a ground wire that daisy-chains across all
>     the rear lamp holders, then leads around the trunk to one of the
>     fuel tank mounting bolts.
>
>     -- Randall
>
>     *Sent: *Friday, November 1, 2019 12:50 PM
>     *Subject: *[TR] TR250 LED tail light problem
>
>     Here's the problem.  When the tail lights are on and I use the
>     flasher,
>
>     the tail/brake lights flicker with the flasher.  They don't go on and
>
>     off but the get brighter and dimmer. When the third brake light is
>
>     hooked up it does the same thing.
>

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    <p>I decided to give up on the issue.  <br>
    </p>
    <p>There did not seem to be much of a voltage drop across the
      battery - about .05 volts as near as I could make out.  It's
      possible that either the meter or myself were not quick enough to
      read accurately.<br>
    </p>
    <p>As far as I could tell there is not a ground terminal on the
      sockets.  There was about .009 volts between the lamp housing and
      the battery.  I did run additional wires from the lamp housing to
      a ground (to the tank mounting bolts).<br>
    </p>
    <p>The brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals, in
      opposition, got brighter when the turn signals were off.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Tested the lights with regular brake lights instead of LEDs. I
      noticed the brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals. 
      This is when I decided to give up and just live with it.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Oh, the third brake light that I have wired in - power from the
      brake lights and grounded to the body flash when ever the brake
      lights and turn signals are on (like the brake/tail lights in
      opposition.<br>
      <br>
    </p>
    <p>Thanks for your help.<br>
      Roger<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/3/2019 4:37 PM, Randall wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:201911031737.1Irovm8t23PGoUj1@ibscan-princeton.atl.sa.earthlink.net">
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        <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, thatâ??s the idea.  You want all the
          lights on (including turn signals) during this test.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">What youâ??re looking at is how much voltage
          drop there is through the ground path.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">-- Randall<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <div
          style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid
          #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From:
            </b><a href="mailto:elliottr@rmi.net"; moz-do-not-send="true">Roger
              Elliott</a><br>
            <b>Sent: </b>Sunday, November 3, 2019 1:26 PM<br>
            <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
              moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br>
            <b>Subject: </b>Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem</p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">HI Randall,</span></p>
        <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Thanks for the information and
            the tests.</span></p>
        <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I just want to check something
            on the tests since my electrical trouble shooting ability is
            very limited.</span></p>
        <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">This section is also done with
            the lights on, right?:Â  </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">To
          check for grounding issues, I suggest running a wire to the
          negative battery terminal or negative starter cable, so you
          can connect the ground lead of your DMM to that.  Then you can
          probe at the rear lights, to see how well they are actually
          grounded.  0.2 volt is probably acceptable, anything more than
          that represents a problem that could be fixed.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <br>
          Thanks,<br>
          Roger<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 11/2/19 4:07 PM, Randall wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal">There may not be a good solution, Roger. 
            The incandescent turn signals draw a fair amount of current,
            which is likely more than the stock alternator can deliver
            (along with tail lights and so on) at idle.  So it may be
            that the battery voltage is dropping from 13+ volts
            (alternator supplying all power to car) to  12.6 volts
            (battery supplying some of the power) and the LEDs youâ??re
            using are sensitive enough to show the difference in
            voltage.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">To check, connect a good voltmeter or DMM
            to the battery, then watch what it does when the tail lights
            and flashers are both on.  If Iâ??m right, youâ??ll see the
            battery voltage sag in time with the turn signals.  The only
            fix would be to convert to a more modern alternator, that
            can keep up with the lights at idle.  (Iâ??m not certain, but
            I think there is a Lester unit that would look and fit the
            same as the stock Lucas but give more current across the
            board.  Check with the Jaguar folks.)<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Another fix might be LEDs that use an
            active current source (so are much less sensitive to supply
            voltage), but I have no idea where to buy such things.  I
            made my own using a simple 2-transistor active current
            limiter.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">To check for grounding issues, I suggest
            running a wire to the negative battery terminal or negative
            starter cable, so you can connect the ground lead of your
            DMM to that.  Then you can probe at the rear lights, to see
            how well they are actually grounded.  0.2 volt is probably
            acceptable, anything more than that represents a problem
            that could be fixed.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Iâ??m not sure how the TR250 tail lights
            are wired.  On my TR3, all the rear lamps ground only
            through their mounting screws, which go into clip nuts
            fastened to the sheet metal.  Very insecure, especially if
            the sheet metal has a fresh coat of paint.  <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">However, each lamp has a terminal inside
            the housing for a ground wire.  So, I made up a ground wire
            that daisy-chains across all the rear lamp holders, then
            leads around the trunk to one of the fuel tank mounting
            bolts.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">-- Randall<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a
                href="mailto:elliottr@rmi.net"; moz-do-not-send="true">Roger
                Elliott</a><br>
              <b>Sent: </b>Friday, November 1, 2019 12:50 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
                moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>[TR] TR250 LED tail light problem<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Here's the problem.  When the tail lights
            are on and I use the flasher, <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">the tail/brake lights flicker with the
            flasher.  They don't go on and <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">off but the get brighter and dimmer. 
            When the third brake light is <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">hooked up it does the same thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:.5in">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
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