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Michael, Jim and All:
=20
Your comments below have me thinking about what I have valued in my =
Austin-Healeys, and by extension what others do, will, or might value in =
them =E2=80=93 as balanced against the costs of buying, restoring, =
upgrading or maintaining the cars.
=20
The Healey was never the fastest car I owned, and it was never the =
absolute best handling (though, the last BJ-8 with a new frame and gas =
shocks does handle pretty well). Obviously the Healey never had the most =
up-to-date safety features, and its exterior and dash lighting needed =
LED upgrades to perform even adequately. The list of things the cars =
were not is endless I compared to modern cars=E2=80=A6
=20
BUT: driving a Healey usually put a smile on my face, and it appeared to =
put smiles on a lot of other people=E2=80=99s faces when out and about. =
As you all know, you cannot drive one of these cars without getting =
smiles, waves, thumbs-up, casual nods, etc =E2=80=93 all acknowledging =
the wonderful looks the Healeys have! If you park one, you will =
undoubtedly find your self in a conversation with someone who either had =
one and sold it, wished he had bought one way back when, wished he could =
buy one now, had an uncle who had one, or a cousin, or a =
friend=E2=80=99s dad, or, or, or=E2=80=A6 - you know how it goes! =20
=20
As much fun as it has been to drive my Healeys all over the US and =
Canada, as well as Norway, Denmark and Sweden =E2=80=93 I can say that =
maintaining the cars has been the sore spot for me, and I=E2=80=99m now =
at an age and physical condition where it=E2=80=99s somewhere between =
really-not-fun, really-not-practical and really-not-possible anymore. As =
such, this conversation hits home for me.
=20
SO =E2=80=93 what do I think about the future of Healey ownership? I =
suspect there will always be a small cadre of serious collectors who =
want and value cars that are as original as possible (whether =
=E2=80=9Cconcours=E2=80=9D level, or just plain nice cars!). The pool of =
cars that survive in such condition is shrinking gradually, but then so =
is the pool of such people!=20
=20
I also suspect that there is a substantial and growing group who would =
love the opportunity to have a car with the classic styling of an =
Austin-Healey, but the reliability and drivability of a modern car. =
=E2=80=9CModern=E2=80=9D in this context may well be a very plastic term =
=E2=80=93 meaning different things to different generations. For =
today=E2=80=99s purposes I ask you all whether the future might be =
electric? An Austin-Healey that has good acceleration and brakes, good =
handling, no fluid leaks (!!) and far fewer to no 60 year-old parts to =
go bad =E2=80=93 all combined with the classic lines of the Healey.
=20
What do you say?
=20
-----------------------------------
All the best,
=20
Al Fuller
=20
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of James Frey =
via Healeys
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2025 3:10 PM
To: Michael Salter <michaelsalter@gmail.com>
Cc: Healey List <healeys@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Hello
=20
The costs you cite below are inexorably linked to the =E2=80=9CWhat to =
Do with our Healeys=E2=80=9D question that was also raised. Over the =
last several years, I have restored/built 3 cars with most of the work =
done by a local shop (one of which was a Bugeye). I needed to have most =
work performed by my shop. Although my skills are moderate and I enjoy =
turning wrenches, my time available to do so has lessened in recent =
years. =20
=20
Given the above circumstances, I have easily spent 2-3 times market =
value on the purchase price, work performed, parts, etc. I consider =
myself lucky to have a trusted local shop, but depending on where you =
live (even assuming you are willing to spend the money), it can be =
extraordinarily difficult to get the cars serviced, let alone have =
significant restoration work done. I also don=E2=80=99t see the value =
of most Healeys going up much, and it might go down given the (arguably) =
shrinking market/demographics for these cars. =20
=20
So given my recent experience, as much as I might love to own a BJ8 and =
would consider myself =E2=80=9Ca trusted steward=E2=80=9D, paying =
significant dollars (even for a beautifully restored car) in a declining =
market might not be the best idea. As for a car that =E2=80=9Cneeds =
work=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m starting to feel like I=E2=80=99ve been there =
and done that a little too often. Also, there are fun (more modern) =
cars out there for similar dollars that don=E2=80=99t present the same =
financial risk and difficulties in selling. =20
=20
Lastly, I=E2=80=99m 61 (so not =E2=80=9Cyoung=E2=80=9D) and I think =
those that are younger than me are an even tougher sell. I have 2 adult =
sons that have a moderate interest in cars and the =E2=80=9Cold =
cars=E2=80=9D they might have an interest in are probably from =
2000-2010. =20
=20
The market is undeniably softer than previously, but I actually think =
current values are a sellers market, even in the US. With the potential =
for declining demand, it=E2=80=99s hard for me to see an improving =
Healey market over the next 10+ years. =20
=20
Jim
=20
=20
On Feb 16, 2025, at 2:16=E2=80=AFPM, Michael Salter =
=20
Very good question.=20
All the work that you describe requires an individual with significant =
skill(s). These tasks are not something that your "run of the mill" =
parts changer can undertake. In our part of the world (Canada) those =
"parts changers", without breaking a sweat can easily pull in 6 figures =
which equates to $50/hr. $50/hr paid to the tradesman will typically be =
charged out at an hourly rate of at least $100.
In my book a full restoration takes 1200 hours at least, usually a lot =
more to produce concours standards.
So labour ONLY $120K.
Parts and materials usually at least 50% of labour. $60K.
Incidentals at least another $20K
It's getting up there =F0=9F=98=B3=F0=9F=98=B3
=20
M
=20
=20
On Sun., Feb. 16, 2025, 1:40 p.m. warthodson--- via Healeys, =
The list has been very quiet for a long time.
How about a discussion about the cost of restoring a BN1?=20
The metal work is About 90% done. The remaining work includes final =
fitting all body panels, preparing for paint & final painting.
Wiring, plumbing including rebuilding the brakes, interior, fitting the =
windscreen, convertible top, side curtains including providing all =
material where necessary.=20
Rebuild the engine including all the machining. I have all the necessary =
components.
=20
Gary Hodson
=20
=20
=20
On Sunday, February 16, 2025 at 10:46:32 AM CST, Mike Sinclair via =
=20
=20
Is it me, or is the list quiet? I haven't seen anything for quite a =
while?
Mik
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys =
http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/warthodson@aol.com
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys =
http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaelsalter@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys =
http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/rcw414@icloud.com
=20
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vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Michael, Jim and =
All:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>Your comments below =
have me thinking about what I have valued in my Austin-Healeys, and by =
extension what others do, will, or might value in them =E2=80=93 as =
balanced against the costs of buying, restoring, upgrading or =
maintaining the cars.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>The Healey was =
never the fastest car I owned, and it was never the absolute best =
handling (though, the last BJ-8 with a new frame and gas shocks does =
handle pretty well). Obviously the Healey never had the most up-to-date =
safety features, and its exterior and dash lighting needed LED upgrades =
to perform even adequately. The list of things the cars were not is =
endless I compared to modern cars=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>BUT: driving a =
Healey usually put a smile on my face, and it appeared to put smiles on =
a lot of other people=E2=80=99s faces when out and about. As you all =
know, you cannot drive one of these cars without getting smiles, waves, =
thumbs-up, casual nods, etc =E2=80=93 all acknowledging the wonderful =
looks the Healeys have!=C2=A0 If you park one, you will undoubtedly find =
your self in a conversation with someone who either had one and sold it, =
wished he had bought one way back when, wished he could buy one now, had =
an uncle who had one, or a cousin, or a friend=E2=80=99s dad, or, or, =
or=E2=80=A6 - you know how it goes!=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>As much fun as it =
has been to drive my Healeys all over the US and Canada, as well as =
Norway, Denmark and Sweden =E2=80=93 I can say that maintaining the cars =
has been the sore spot for me, and I=E2=80=99m now at an age and =
physical condition where it=E2=80=99s somewhere between really-not-fun, =
really-not-practical and really-not-possible anymore. As such, this =
conversation hits home for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>SO =E2=80=93 what =
do I think about the future of Healey ownership? I suspect there will =
always be a small cadre of serious collectors who want and value cars =
that are as original as possible (whether =E2=80=9Cconcours=E2=80=9D =
level, or just plain nice cars!). The pool of cars that survive in such =
condition is shrinking gradually, but then so is the pool of such =
people! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>I also suspect that =
there is a substantial and growing group who would love the opportunity =
to have a car with the classic styling of an Austin-Healey, but the =
reliability and drivability of a modern car. =E2=80=9CModern=E2=80=9D in =
this context may well be a very plastic term =E2=80=93 meaning different =
things to different generations.=C2=A0 For today=E2=80=99s purposes I =
ask you all whether the future might be electric? An Austin-Healey that =
has good acceleration and brakes, good handling, no fluid leaks (!!) and =
far fewer to no 60 year-old parts to go bad =E2=80=93 all combined with =
the classic lines of the Healey.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'>What do you =
say?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>-------------=
----------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>All the =
best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Al =
Fuller<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",serif'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>James =
Frey via Healeys<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 16, 2025 3:10 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Salter =
<michaelsalter@gmail.com><br><b>Cc:</b> Healey List =
<healeys@autox.team.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] =
Hello<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>The costs you cite =
below are inexorably linked to the =E2=80=9CWhat to Do with our =
Healeys=E2=80=9D question that was also raised. Over the last =
several years, I have restored/built 3 cars with most of the work done =
by a local shop (one of which was a Bugeye). I needed to have most =
work performed by my shop. Although my skills are moderate and I =
enjoy turning wrenches, my time available to do so has lessened in =
recent years. </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Given the above =
circumstances, I have easily spent 2-3 times market value on the =
purchase price, work performed, parts, etc. I consider myself =
lucky to have a trusted local shop, but depending on where you live =
(even assuming you are willing to spend the money), it can be =
extraordinarily difficult to get the cars serviced, let alone have =
significant restoration work done. I also don=E2=80=99t see the =
value of most Healeys going up much, and it might go down given the =
(arguably) shrinking market/demographics for these cars. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>So given my recent =
experience, as much as I might love to own a BJ8 and would consider =
myself =E2=80=9Ca trusted steward=E2=80=9D, paying significant dollars =
(even for a beautifully restored car) in a declining market might not be =
the best idea. As for a car that =E2=80=9Cneeds work=E2=80=9D, =
I=E2=80=99m starting to feel like I=E2=80=99ve been there and done that =
a little too often. Also, there are fun (more modern) cars out =
there for similar dollars that don=E2=80=99t present the same financial =
risk and difficulties in selling. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Lastly, I=E2=80=99m =
61 (so not =E2=80=9Cyoung=E2=80=9D) and I think those that are younger =
than me are an even tougher sell. I have 2 adult sons that have a =
moderate interest in cars and the =E2=80=9Cold cars=E2=80=9D they might =
have an interest in are probably from 2000-2010. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>The market is =
undeniably softer than previously, but I actually think current values =
are a sellers market, even in the US. With the potential for =
declining demand, it=E2=80=99s hard for me to see an improving Healey =
market over the next 10+ years. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Jim</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 16, 2025, at 2:16=E2=80=AFPM, Michael Salter =
<<a =
href=3D"mailto:michaelsalter@gmail.com";>michaelsalter@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Very good question. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the work that you describe requires an individual =
with significant skill(s). These tasks are not something that your =
"run of the mill" parts changer can undertake. In our =
part of the world (Canada) those "parts changers", without =
breaking a sweat can easily pull in 6 figures which equates to $50/hr. =
$50/hr paid to the tradesman will typically be charged out at an hourly =
rate of at least $100.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>In =
my book a full restoration takes 1200 hours at least, usually a lot more =
to produce concours standards.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So labour ONLY $120K.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Parts and materials usually at least 50% of labour. =
$60K.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Incidentals at least =
another $20K<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>It's getting =
up there <span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI =
Emoji",sans-serif'>😳😳</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>M<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Sun., Feb. 16, 2025, 1:40 p.m. warthodson--- via Healeys, <<a =
href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>The list =
has been very quiet for a long time.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>How about =
a discussion about the cost of restoring a =
BN1? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>The metal work is About 90% done. =
The remaining work includes final fitting all body panels, preparing for =
paint & final painting.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Wiring, =
plumbing including rebuilding the brakes, interior, fitting the =
windscreen, convertible top, side curtains including providing all =
material where necessary. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Rebuild =
the engine including all the machining. I have all the necessary =
components.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Gary =
Hodson<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Comic Sans =
MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_6446190483034331511ydpaa12e928yahoo_quoted_0398894478"><div><div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'>On Sunday, February 16, 2025 at 10:46:32 AM CST, Mike Sinclair via =
Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>> wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div =
id=3D"m_6446190483034331511ydpaa12e928yiv3642250353"><div><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>=
Is it me, or is the list quiet? I haven't seen anything for quite =
a while?</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>=
Mik</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'>_______________________________________________<br>Support Team.Net =
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