Re: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil

[Enquiries Road & Track via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>]

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

i offer some comments based on decades of dealing with this issue in lots
of different race cars

to select the correct viscosity, you really need to know the operating
temperature

Adhesive temp indicating labels on the outside of the main diff case are
usually the easiest method. they will give you a good idea of
whats happening inside

typically, the outer case is a few degrees cooler that the circulating oil,
so be cautious here as it is most likely a lot "cooler" then the oil film
between the ring and the pinion at the point of their contact

if you are seeing temps much over 100C on the outer, then the old 90 weight
diff oils are highly unlikely to acceptable

once most 'off-the-shelf" oils get to about 100C, they are starting to
degrade ,  some irrevocably (ie they are stuffed!!)

once you have an idea of temps , start looking at kinematic viscosity of
the oil being suggested. simplistically, its this value that allow the oil
to function as a metal to metal separator and the hotter things get, the
lower the viscosity becomes, and the lower the chance of it keeping metals
apart. the various brands of "race oils" can differ widely in this regard

in most modern rear-drive race cars we are using 140 grade purpose-made
race gear oils, and these have all sorts of fancy additives

microfinishing the ring and pinion gears prior to a diff build, can drop
working temperatures considerably

hope this helps in some way

Terry
Australia



On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 12:35 AM Phil Gott via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Thank you, everyone!
>
> It would seem that lubes designed for the everyday street-driven car
> aren't up to the challenge of racing our hyping diffs.  I thought the fol=
ks
> at Mobil would have done better, but apparently not enough.  I've taken a=
ll
> your inputs into consideration and going with the Redline Shockproof
> (lightweight) oil.  I'm also thinking of bolting on the aluminum cover of
> the 4A IRS diff to get a little extra capacity and perhaps some better
> cooling, although the added thickness may offset the higher rate of heat
> transfer through the metal.  Will do the math.
>
> Your insights are much appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Phil Gott
> Red '65 4A, #114
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexandre Camoletti via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
> To: fot@autox.team.net
> Sent: Thu, Aug 11, 2022 4:38 am
> Subject: Re: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil
>
> Gents, when heats becomes a problem then you should definitely try the
> Lucas oils. Measure temperatures before and after the change, the
> difference is usually quite big !
>
>
>
> *De :* Fot [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] *De la part de* fubog1 via
> Fot
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* mercredi 10 ao=C3=BBt 2022 19:25
> *=C3=80 :* fot@autox.team.net
> *Cc :* fot@autox.team.net
> *Objet :* Re: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil
>
>
>
> Bob you bring up another good point as well, there's a big difference
> between a 20 minute sprint race & an enduro, the heat is a much bigger
> consideration...
>
>
>
> Glen Efinger
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Kramer Gmail via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
> To: fubog1 <fubog1@aol.com>
> Cc: fot@autox.team.net
> Sent: Wed, Aug 10, 2022 11:51 am
> Subject: Re: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil
>
> Good point Glen. Welding up the center section makes the soft yellow meta=
l
> cone washers moot.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve found EP90 GL4 from Car Quest (available from Advance) as a =
good
> substitute for StaLube GL4, but it overheats and failed us in endurance
> racing.  It has always worked in the shorter vintage race, and is cheap
> enough the drain and refill often.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2022, at 10:03 AM, fubog1 via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
>
> Welded rear gears aren't that fussy about lube, any good hypoid gear oil
> should be OK;
>
> I usually use 80-90 Valvo in them.
>
> The metal in the sample is a different story, they normally don't "make"
> any metal in operation.
>
> You'll have to remove the cover & get a visual on things, check the lash,
> mesh pattern & preloads best possible in situ.
>
>
>
> Glen Efinger
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Gott via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
> To: Friends Of Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 9, 2022 9:53 pm
> Subject: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil
>
> Amici:
>
> At the risk of opening Pandora=E2=80=99s box, May I ask what gear oil you=
 would
> recommend for the rear end in my TR4A (solid axle)? I am running Mobil 1
> 75-140 and found some metal flakes on my magnetic filler plug after Pitt
> Race. Usually there are some whiskers, but the metal flakes are concernin=
g.
> The rear end is a welded diff carrying a relatively new (3 seasons) 4.1
> gear set.  I have yet to pull the cover. Backlash seems =E2=80=9Cnormal.=
=E2=80=9D The rear
> end was set up by Quantum Mechanics whom I trust.
>
> What do you all run for oil (brand and viscosity) and what is your
> experience?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
>
>
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>
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>
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>

--000000000000b68e1905e5fd80e6
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">i offer some comments based on decades of dealing with thi=
s issue in lots of different race cars=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>to select=
=C2=A0the correct viscosity, you really=C2=A0need to know the operating tem=
perature</div><div><br></div><div>Adhesive temp indicating labels on the ou=
tside of the main diff case are usually=C2=A0the easiest method. they will =
give you a good idea of whats=C2=A0happening inside</div><div><br></div><di=
v>typically, the outer case is a few degrees cooler that the circulating oi=
l, so be cautious=C2=A0here as it is most likely a lot &quot;cooler&quot; t=
hen the oil film between the ring and the pinion at the point of their cont=
act</div><div><br></div><div>if you are seeing temps much over 100C on the =
outer, then the old 90 weight diff oils are highly unlikely to acceptable</=
div><div><br></div><div>once most &#39;off-the-shelf&quot; oils get to abou=
t 100C, they are starting to degrade ,=C2=A0 some irrevocably (ie they are =
stuffed!!)</div><div><br></div><div>once you have an idea of temps , start =
looking at kinematic=C2=A0viscosity of the oil being suggested. simplistica=
lly, its this value that allow the oil to function as a metal to metal sepa=
rator=C2=A0and the hotter things get, the lower the viscosity becomes, and =
the lower the chance of it keeping metals apart. the various brands of &quo=
t;race oils&quot; can differ widely in this regard</div><div><br></div><div=
>in most=C2=A0modern rear-drive race cars we are using 140 grade purpose-ma=
de race gear oils, and these have all sorts of fancy additives=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>microfinishing the ring and pinion gears prior to a diff=
 build, can drop working temperatures considerably</div><div><br></div><div=
>hope this helps in some way</div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Terry</div><div>Australia<br><b=
r></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 12:35 AM Phil Gott via Fot &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font=
-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black"><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black">Than=
k you, everyone!</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:10pt;color:black"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black">It would seem that lubes design=
ed for the everyday street-driven car aren&#39;t up to the challenge of rac=
ing our hyping diffs.=C2=A0 I thought the folks at Mobil would have done be=
tter, but apparently not enough.=C2=A0 I&#39;ve taken all your inputs into =
consideration and going with the Redline Shockproof (lightweight) oil.=C2=
=A0 I&#39;m also thinking of bolting on the aluminum cover of the 4A IRS di=
ff to get a little extra capacity and perhaps some better cooling, although=
 the added thickness may offset the higher rate of heat transfer through th=
e metal.=C2=A0 Will do the math.</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black">Your insights a=
re much appreciated.</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:10pt;color:black"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black">Regards,</div><div style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;colo=
r:black">Phil Gott</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:10pt;color:black">Red &#39;65 4A, #114<br><br><br>-----Original=
 Message-----<br>From: Alexandre Camoletti via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fo=
t@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br>To: <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><b=
r>Sent: Thu, Aug 11, 2022 4:38 am<br>Subject: Re: [Fot] Final drive (differ=
ential) oil<br><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-8028308041457436653yiv95095208=
34"><div><div><p><span style=3D"color:rgb(68,84,106)">Gents, when heats bec=
omes a problem then you should definitely try the Lucas oils. Measure tempe=
ratures before and after the change, the difference is usually quite big=C2=
=A0!</span></p><p><span style=3D"color:rgb(68,84,106)"> =C2=A0</span></p><p=
><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10pt">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10pt"> Fot [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fot-bounc=
es@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>] <b>De =
la part de</b> fubog1 via Fot<br clear=3D"none"><b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> m=
ercredi 10 ao=C3=BBt 2022 19:25<br clear=3D"none"><b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><=
br clear=3D"none"><b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; ta=
rget=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><b>Objet=C2=A0:</b=
> Re: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil</span></p><p> =C2=A0</p><div id=
=3D"gmail-m_-8028308041457436653yiv9509520834yqt75679"><div><div><p><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Bob you bring up another good point as =
well, there&#39;s a big difference between a 20 minute sprint race &amp; an=
 enduro, the heat is a much bigger consideration...</span></p></div><div><p=
><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><div><p=
><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Glen Efinger</span></p></div><d=
iv><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><d=
iv><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><d=
iv><p style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:blac=
k">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">From: Bob Kramer Gmail via =
Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.t=
eam.net</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">To: fubog1 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fubog1@a=
ol.com" target=3D"_blank">fubog1@aol.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">Cc: <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><=
br clear=3D"none">Sent: Wed, Aug 10, 2022 11:51 am<br clear=3D"none">Subjec=
t: Re: [Fot] Final drive (differential) oil</span></p><div id=3D"gmail-m_-8=
028308041457436653yiv9509520834"><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;colo=
r:black">Good point Glen. Welding up the center section makes the soft yell=
ow metal cone washers moot.=C2=A0 </span></p><div><p><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;color:black">I=E2=80=99ve found EP90 GL4 from Car Quest (available =
from Advance) as a good substitute for StaLube GL4, but it overheats and fa=
iled us in endurance racing.=C2=A0 It has always worked in the shorter vint=
age race, and is cheap enough the drain and refill often.=C2=A0</span></p><=
div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p><div><p=
><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Sent from my iPhone</span></p><=
/div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black"><br clear=3D"none">=
<br clear=3D"none"></span></p><p style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">On Aug 10, 2022, at 10:03 AM, fubog1 via Fo=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.tea=
m.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;ma=
rgin-bottom:5pt"><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">=EF=BB=
=BF </span></p><div id=3D"gmail-m_-8028308041457436653yiv9509520834yqt05668=
"><div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Welded rear gears=
 aren&#39;t that fussy about lube, any good hypoid gear oil should be OK;</=
span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">I usually=
 use 80-90 Valvo in them.</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;color:black">The metal in the sample is a different story, they normal=
ly don&#39;t &quot;make&quot; any metal in operation.</span></p></div><div>=
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">You&#39;ll have to remove the=
 cover &amp; get a visual on things, check the lash, mesh pattern &amp; pre=
loads best possible in situ.</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;color:black">Glen Efinger</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p></div><div><p style=3D"margin-b=
ottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Messag=
e-----<br clear=3D"none">From: Philip Gott via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fo=
t@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"=
none">To: Friends Of Triumph &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; targ=
et=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Tue, Aug 9=
, 2022 9:53 pm<br clear=3D"none">Subject: [Fot] Final drive (differential) =
oil</span></p><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Amici:</sp=
an></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">At the risk=
 of opening Pandora=E2=80=99s box, May I ask what gear oil you would recomm=
end for the rear end in my TR4A (solid axle)? I am running Mobil 1 75-140 a=
nd found some metal flakes on my magnetic filler plug after Pitt Race. Usua=
lly there are some whiskers, but the metal flakes are concerning. The rear =
end is a welded diff carrying a relatively new (3 seasons) 4.1 gear set.=C2=
=A0 I have yet to pull the cover. Backlash seems =E2=80=9Cnormal.=E2=80=9D =
The rear end was set up by Quantum Mechanics whom I trust.</span></p></div>=
<div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">What do you all run for =
oil (brand and viscosity) and what is your experience?</span></p></div><div=
><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Thanks and regards,</span></=
p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Phil</span></p><=
/div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black"> =C2=A0</span></p><=
/div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">Sent from my iPhone=
</span></p></div><div><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">_______=
________________________________________</span></p></div><div><p><span styl=
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rkramer56@gmail.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></span></p></d=
iv></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-802830804145743=
6653yiv9509520834yqt65412"><p style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;color:black">_______________________________________________<=
br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><b=
r clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
 shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/"; target=3D"_blank">http:=
//www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a re=
l=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br cl=
ear=3D"none">Archive: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; target=3D"_blank">http://autox.tea=
m.net/archive </a><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" hr=
ef=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot"; target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.=
net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a rel=3D"nofol=
low noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailm=
an/options/fot/fubog1@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mail=
man/options/fot/fubog1@aol.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></s=
pan></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-80283=
08041457436653yqt86012">_______________________________________________<br =
clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a =
shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/"; target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a sha=
pe=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; target=3D"_blank">http=
://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a shape=3D"rect=
" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; target=3D"_blank">http://autox.tea=
m.net/archive </a><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/f=
ot" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"non=
e">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mail=
man/options/fot/vfracing@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/m=
ailman/options/fot/vfracing@aol.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div>__________________________________________=
_____<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>
t/enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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