--===============2511371567627745401==
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i offer general comments from trying to understand this issue with modern
race engines, however in days gone bye , i had my share of issues with oil
pressures in race 2500 enignes
simplistically, high temperatures result in loss of kinematic viscosity and
therefore reducing both pressure and metal-to-metal protection
in extreme cases, molecular bonds can get broken and not fully or even
partially recover, so oil can be irrevocably "damaged" and the operator
cant tell that unless the oil gets tested
most oils are tested and rated at 90C, so about 200F. experiments suggest
about 250F is the point where most off-the-shelf oils can exhibit
significant degradation in many properties, especially kinematic viscosity
dont forget, the temperature at a contact surface could be momentarily (and
locally) much higher than what a probe in the sump might indicate as an
'average"
most oil suppliers will tell you if the oil temperature is much in excess
of water temperature, you need to address that
if a reliable sump probe is indicating the oil there is much over 220F, i'd
be doing more study to get to the bottom of the issue.
if you are trying to select an oil for a race engine, go looking at the
data on kinematic viscosity at the 90C (test point) and that will give a
clue to the oil that will best hold its viscosity at elevated temperatures.
Terry
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 6:37 AM dustin nicholson via Fot <fot@autox.team.ne=
t>
wrote:
> Thanks guys, all the responses to the group and me individually are very
> helpful and appreciated. My responses and summary:
>
>
> - I already suspected the sensor or gauge were inaccurate, after your
> responses I'm even more confident that's what's going on. I will be
> snaking a thermocouple down the dip stick tube right after shut down t=
o get
> a comparison reading. If needed, I might also put the sensor in boili=
ng
> water to test accuracy. One idea suggested is that if I have a 10V ga=
uge
> hooked up to 12V it could give a 20% higher reading therefore 290 degr=
ees
> is actually 232 degrees. Y'all have no shortage of ideas I never thou=
ght
> of.
> - I will take your collective advice and add an oil cooler and high
> flow thermostat to allow the oil when cold to reach temperature. My
> previous FP Spitfire didn't need one as it ran too cool with a huge cr=
oss
> flow radiator even with the fan off (only used the fan on the grid). =
I
> guess TR3's are a different animal.
> - There is no oil return line from supercharger near the oil temp
> sensor. I think that was the question from Mike H.
> - I will be removing the supercharger and going back to SU's... at the
> same time that I raise the compression and maybe swap to a lumpier cam=
.
> But that won't happen until after a race weekend or two, CVAR Authenti=
city
> Steward is giving me time to get compliant. I don't want to give up t=
he
> supercharger power until I can gain at least some of it back!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dusty Nicholson
>
> 1955 TR3 #72
>
> 1957 TR3 #43
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 25, 2021, 02:56:25 PM CDT, Barr, Scott <
> sbarr@mccarty-law.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hear, hear! I don=E2=80=99t believe the gauge if you=E2=80=99re getting =
170 measuring the
> pan and the pan is where the sender is for the oil temp. I=E2=80=99d try=
a new
> sender and a new gauge before I tore it all apart.
>
>
>
> And you said it=E2=80=99s a race car not a street car?? Did no one else=
say
> =E2=80=9Cwait=E2=80=A6..supercharger??=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m not one of t=
hose originality over all guys,
> and think a supercharger on a race car is a cool addition.
>
>
>
> Scott (B.)
>
>
>
> *From:* Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Doug Mitchell via
> Fot
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 25, 2021 12:57 PM
> *To:* dustin nicholson <nicholsondustin@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* FOT Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fot] Oil temp
>
>
>
> Looking at the problem from another point of view, I would question the
> accuracy of the gauge. If you are seeing a 120 degree difference, somethi=
ng
> isn't right. Is the guage mechanical or electrical? If it is electrical,
> there could be a mismatch between the sensor and the guage. I'd try anoth=
er
> guage if you have one.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:51 PM dustin nicholson via Fot <
> fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> Amici,
>
>
>
> I'm sorting out a new to me race car and don't like that the oil
> temperature gauge reads around 290 degrees. I've never had an oil temp
> gauge on previous cars so I'm not sure what's normal (240?) but 290 seems
> high to me. Yes?
>
>
>
> More temp info: Air temp is near 100 degrees. Water temp is steady 185
> degrees. Big aluminum radiator with electric fan. No oil cooler. Oil
> temp sensor is in the aluminum finned oil pan. IR temp gun says the
> outside of the pan is 170 degrees. Maybe the oil temp gauge is wrong? I
> wouldn't expect such a big difference between the outside of the pan and
> the oil temp.
>
>
>
> Engine info: mild engine, stock compression, fast road cam (270 is my
> guess), supercharger with the medium size pully, pump gas
>
>
>
> Maybe I'm worrying about nothing. I just know that racing in 2 weeks at
> Eagles Canyon in Texas is going to be hot and I want to make it through t=
he
> weekend.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Dusty Nicholson
>
> 1955 TR3 #72
>
> 1957 TR3 #43
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot@autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/dbm.spitfire@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> fot@autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au
>
>
>
--000000000000594b3e05ca692ed2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">i offer general comments from trying to understand this is=
sue with modern race engines, however in days gone bye , i had my share of =
issues with oil pressures in race 2500 enignes<div><br></div><div>simplisti=
cally, high temperatures result in loss of kinematic viscosity and therefor=
e reducing both pressure and metal-to-metal protection</div><div><br></div>=
<div>in extreme cases, molecular bonds can get broken=C2=A0and not fully or=
even partially recover, so oil can be irrevocably=C2=A0"damaged"=
and the operator cant tell that unless the oil gets tested</div><div><br><=
/div><div>most oils are tested and rated at 90C, so about 200F. experiments=
suggest about 250F is the point where most off-the-shelf oils can exhibit =
significant=C2=A0degradation in many properties, especially kinematic visco=
sity</div><div><br></div><div>dont forget, the temperature at a contact sur=
face could be momentarily (and locally) much higher than what a probe in th=
e sump might indicate as an 'average"=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>most oil suppliers will tell you if the oil temperature is much in exces=
s of water temperature, you need to address that</div><div><br></div><div>i=
f a reliable=C2=A0sump probe is indicating the oil there is much over 220F,=
i'd be doing more study to get to the bottom of the issue.=C2=A0</div>=
<div><br></div><div>if you are trying to select an oil for a race engine, g=
o looking at the data on kinematic viscosity at=C2=A0 the 90C (test point)=
=C2=A0 and that will give a clue to the oil that will best hold its viscosi=
ty at elevated temperatures.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Terry</div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On T=
hu, Aug 26, 2021 at 6:37 AM dustin nicholson via Fot <<a href=3D"mailto:=
fot@autox.team.net">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:"=
times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:13px"><div=
></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif">Tha=
nks guys, all the responses to the group and me individually are very helpf=
ul and appreciated.=C2=A0 My responses and summary:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman","new =
york",times,serif"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif"=
><ul dir=3D"ltr"><li>I already suspected the sensor or gauge were inaccurat=
e, after your responses I'm even more confident that's what's g=
oing on.=C2=A0 I will be snaking a thermocouple down the dip stick tube rig=
ht after shut down to get a comparison reading.=C2=A0 If needed, I might al=
so put the sensor in boiling water to test accuracy.=C2=A0 One idea suggest=
ed is that if I have a 10V gauge hooked up to 12V it could give a 20% highe=
r reading therefore 290 degrees is actually 232 degrees.=C2=A0 Y'all ha=
ve no shortage of ideas I never thought of.</li><li>I will take your collec=
tive advice and add an oil cooler and high flow thermostat to allow the oil=
when cold to reach temperature.=C2=A0 My previous FP Spitfire didn't n=
eed one as it ran too cool with a huge cross flow radiator even with the fa=
n off (only used the fan on the grid).=C2=A0 I guess TR3's are a differ=
ent animal.</li><li>There is no oil return line from supercharger near the =
oil temp sensor.=C2=A0 I think that was the question from Mike H.</li><li>I=
will be removing the supercharger and going back to SU's... at the sam=
e time that I raise the compression and maybe swap to a lumpier cam.=C2=A0 =
But that won't happen until after a race weekend or two, CVAR Authentic=
ity Steward is giving me time to get compliant.=C2=A0 I don't want to g=
ive up the supercharger power until I can gain at least some of it back!=C2=
=A0=C2=A0</li></ul><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times n=
ew roman","new york",times,serif"><div style=3D"color:rgb(38=
,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">=
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">Dusty N=
icholson</span></p></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:&quo=
t;Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><p><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">1955 TR3 #72</span></p></div><d=
iv style=3D"color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helv=
etica,Arial,sans-serif"><p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"=
New serif"">1957 TR3 #43</span></p></div></div></div><br></div><div><b=
r></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-1804379309425136270ydp9ca8db95yahoo_quote=
d_0007286444">
<div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,=
Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
=20
<div>
On Wednesday, August 25, 2021, 02:56:25 PM CDT, Barr, S=
cott <<a href=3D"mailto:sbarr@mccarty-law.com"; target=3D"_blank">sbarr@m=
ccarty-law.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-1804379309425136270ydp9ca8db95yiv4=
161111718"><div>
<div>
<p>Hear, hear!=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t believe the gauge if you=E2=80=99re ge=
tting 170 measuring the pan and the pan is where the sender is for the oil =
temp.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d try a new sender and a new gauge before I tore it a=
ll apart.</p>=20
<p> =C2=A0</p>=20
<p>And you said it=E2=80=99s a race car not a street car??=C2=A0=C2=A0 Did =
no one else say =E2=80=9Cwait=E2=80=A6..supercharger??=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 I=E2=
=80=99m not one of those originality over all guys, and think a supercharge=
r on a race car is a cool addition.</p>=20
<p> =C2=A0</p>=20
<p>Scott (B.)</p>=20
<p> =C2=A0</p>=20
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-1804379309425136270ydp9ca8db95yiv4161111718yqt73150"><d=
iv style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-to=
p:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p><b>From:</b> Fot <<a href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net"; targe=
t=3D"_blank">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Doug Mitchell via Fot<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 25, 2021 12:57 PM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> dustin nicholson <<a href=3D"mailto:nicholsondustin@yahoo.com=
" target=3D"_blank">nicholsondustin@yahoo.com</a>><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b> FOT Triumph <<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"=
_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Oil temp</p>=20
</div>
<p> =C2=A0</p>=20
<div>
<p>Looking at the problem from another point of view, I would question the =
accuracy of the gauge. If you are seeing a 120 degree difference, something=
isn't right. Is the guage mechanical or electrical? If it is electrica=
l, there could be
a mismatch between the sensor and the guage. I'd try another guage if =
you have one.</p>=20
</div>
<p> =C2=A0</p>=20
<div>
<div>
<p>On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:51 PM dustin nicholson via Fot <<a shape=3D"=
rect" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
>fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</p>=20
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">Amici,<=
/span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif""> =C2=A0=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">I'm=
sorting out a new to me race car and don't like that the oil temperatu=
re gauge reads around 290 degrees.=C2=A0 I've never had an oil temp gau=
ge on previous cars so I'm not
sure what's normal (240?) but 290 seems high to me.=C2=A0 Yes?</span><=
/p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif""> =C2=A0=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">More te=
mp info:=C2=A0 Air temp is near 100 degrees.=C2=A0 Water temp is steady 185=
degrees.=C2=A0 Big aluminum radiator with electric fan.=C2=A0 No oil coole=
r.=C2=A0 Oil temp sensor is in the aluminum
finned oil pan.=C2=A0 IR temp gun says the outside of the pan is 170 degre=
es.=C2=A0 Maybe the oil temp gauge is wrong?=C2=A0 I wouldn't expect su=
ch a big difference between the outside of the pan and the oil temp.</span>=
</p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif""> =C2=A0=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">Engine =
info:=C2=A0 mild engine, stock compression, fast road cam (270 is my guess)=
, supercharger with the medium size pully, pump gas</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif""> =C2=A0=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">Maybe I=
'm worrying about nothing.=C2=A0 I just know that racing in 2 weeks at =
Eagles Canyon in Texas is going to be hot and I want to make it through the=
weekend.</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif""> =C2=A0=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">Thanks,=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif""> =C2=A0=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">Dusty N=
icholson</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">1955 TR=
3 #72</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"New serif"">1957 TR=
3 #43</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">___________________________________________=
____<br clear=3D"none">
<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com"; rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
ofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"=
none">
Archive: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; rel=3D"no=
follow" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a>
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ge" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br=
clear=3D"none">
lman/options/fot/dbm.spitfire@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
>
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/dbm.spitfire@gmail.com</a><br cle=
ar=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</p>=20
</blockquote>
</div></div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
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</blockquote></div>
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