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If the chain tensioner is badly worn (deep grooves) after a short time, thi=
s is a sign that the chain is moving wildly. This can happen when the chain=
gears are not properly aligned : aligning the gears is very important and =
should be checked when a billet steel crankshaft or non original gears (Ver=
nier camshaft gear) are fitted. I don't know for the Spitfire chain tension=
er, but the TR 4 cyl tensioner does next to nothing for keeping the chain q=
uietly. Does someone know of a trick to replace this very weak tensioner wi=
th something stronger, or a tensioner that is working with the oil pressure=
?=20
Marcel=20
Van: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>=20
Aan: "rick parent" <rick.parent@att.net>, "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>=20
Verzonden: Dinsdag 26 november 2019 18:33:10=20
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question=20
Damned right, my 1300 small-crank has always had a single row chain, for th=
at reason, that double-row setup is heavy.=20
At 6-8 hour TBO, the chain & tensioner were routine replacement anyhow.=20
Also not all chains & tensioners are created equal, some vendors are now of=
fering quality chains as an option, and the tensioners should be plated, th=
ey last a lot longer.=20
Glen=20
heavy ass double chain set up??=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Rick Parent via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>=20
To: fot <fot@autox.team.net>; Mathieu W. Huovinen <maddhatt69@aol.com>; Rob=
ert Lang <robertlangtr6@yahoo.com>=20
Sent: Tue, Nov 26, 2019 9:28 am=20
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question=20
That's about normal, why in the sam hell are you using that heavy ass doubl=
e chain set up?? Come on man get it together.=20
On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 08:29:26 AM EST, Robert Lang via Fot <fot@au=
tox.team.net> wrote:=20
Hi - They usually "jump" a tooth on overrun, or at least that's my experien=
ce. Or it can happen on a backfire... I had a Pontiac with a V8 back in the=
day. The exhaust pipe broke before the muffler, so it had a really kool ru=
mble sound. I used to take it out at night and drive exit ramps at "stupid =
speed" and then downshift the auto trans one gear to get the koolest sound.=
.. not to mention "power-off oversteer". Drift City. After one of these exc=
ursions, the engine became very hard to start. I took the car off the road =
and sold it to a friend. About a month later, he called me up all pissed of=
f and wanting his $600 back because he had to fix the timing chain.=20
Never sold a car to a friend or associate ever again.=20
;-)=20
But in addition to the new chain and tensioner, take a close look at that c=
rank gear and make sure the "troughs" don't have a burr or the points aren'=
t sharp, either would indicate wear and you don't want that.=20
I don't recall a spec for play in the chain, but you want "as little as pos=
sible". If you can get the cam gear onto the cam easily with the chain thre=
aded, that's too loose.=20
C ya,=20
Bob Lang=20
On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 7:54:29 AM EST, Mathieu W. Huovinen <maddhat=
t69@aol.com> wrote:=20
Bob and FOT,=20
I'm beginning to suspect a combination of a weak chain tensioner and an eng=
ine harmonic that may have caused it. Attached a pic of the play in the tim=
ing chain..about 1/2". Is that too much? If so, Ted, I'll be contacting you=
shortly. Chain is about two years old, maybe 6 weekend s of racing on it. =
New chain tensioner from Moss should be here today and I'm interested in se=
eing the difference in spring arch between the original single chain tensio=
ner and the new TR6 double chain tensioner. Stay tuned!=20
Mathieu=20
On Monday, November 25, 2019 Robert Lang < robertlangtr6@yahoo.com > wrote:=
=20
Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8's but the principle is th=
e same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn teeth on the crank gear.=
If the crank gear has really sharp teeth, the gear is probably worn. Note =
that this is really easy to overlook. And I've had this problem with TR6 en=
gines a couple of times. Especially if you sourced the inexpensive gears. S=
eems like the hardening of the metal is wrong on some of the parts out ther=
e.=20
That said, the numbers look like you jumped more than one tooth. If the "ju=
mp" occurred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 teeth).=
Your mention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more like more than 34 d=
egrees or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 - not =
good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have seen engines run w=
ith more than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poorly!=20
I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'd just replace it =
along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain tensioners seem to be=
not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly rapidly.=20
On the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the process.=20
C ya,=20
Bob Lang=20
339-927-4489=20
On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu W. Huovinen via Fot =
<fot@autox.team.net> wrote:=20
Fellas,=20
Sounds like we have the bearing cap strap issue resolved...who is up for an=
other mystery? Has anyone ever has their timing chain skip a tooth??=20
Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Point. Tr=
iumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running well =
all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for the to=
set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden the ca=
r just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the side of =
the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrtonix di=
stributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertronix.=
I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in a new=
coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. Not eve=
n a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery from t=
rying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar battery =
from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot batt=
ery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I even=
pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make sure=
I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next day (=
this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70/70/70. What the =
heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timing. I spe=
nt the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. Got home,=
car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timing chain c=
over. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rockers and se=
t dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam sheet says wh=
ere #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial indicator. =
Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150ish degre=
es past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I had went ri=
ght past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rotated camsh=
aft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set the chai=
n back on...about one tooth Put rockers back on and checked compression on =
#1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down to yell art me=
. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put it back togethe=
r.=20
Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain "float" at high revs? Thank-you in ad=
vance for any input!=20
V/r,=20
Mathieu Huovinen=20
_______________________________________________=20
[ mailto:fot@autox.team.net | fot@autox.team.net ]=20
[ http://www.fot-racing.com/ | http://www.fot-racing.com ]=20
]=20
Archive: [ http://autox.team.net/archive | http://autox.team.net/archive ]=
[ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot | http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot ]=
=20
r6@yahoo.com | http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/robertlangtr6@yaho=
o.com ]=20
_______________________________________________=20
[ mailto:fot@autox.team.net | fot@autox.team.net ]=20
[ http://www.fot-racing.com/ | http://www.fot-racing.com ]=20
]=20
Archive: [ http://autox.team.net/archive | http://autox.team.net/archive ]=
[ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot | http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot ]=
=20
@att.net | http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rick.parent@att.net ]=
=20
_______________________________________________=20
[ mailto:fot@autox.team.net | fot@autox.team.net ]=20
[ http://www.fot-racing.com/ | http://www.fot-racing.com ]=20
]=20
Archive: [ http://autox.team.net/archive | http://autox.team.net/archive ]=
[ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot | http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot ]=
=20
com | http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1@aol.com ]=20
_______________________________________________=20
fot@autox.team.net=20
http://www.fot-racing.com=20
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot=20
arcel@telenet.be=20
--=_716167e4-81ce-49e8-a0b6-05fac35fabfd
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div>If the chain tensioner is ba=
dly worn (deep grooves) after a short time, this is a sign that the chain i=
s moving wildly. This can happen when the chain gears are not properly alig=
ned : aligning the gears is very important and should be checked when a bil=
let steel crankshaft or non original gears (Vernier camshaft gear) are fitt=
ed. I don't know for the Spitfire chain tensioner, but the TR 4 cyl t=
ensioner does next to nothing for keeping the chain quietly. Does som=
eone know of a trick to replace this very weak tensioner with something str=
onger, or a tensioner that is working with the oil pressure? </div><di=
v>Marcel</div><div><br></div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__"><=
div data-marker=3D"__HEADERS__"><b>Van: </b>"fot" <fot@autox.team.net>=
;<br><b>Aan: </b>"rick parent" <rick.parent@att.net>, "fot" <fot@a=
utox.team.net><br><b>Verzonden: </b>Dinsdag 26 november 2019 18:33:10<br=
><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question<br></div><br><div =
data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__"><div style=3D"color:black;font:10pt 'arial'=
, 'helvetica' , sans-serif">
<div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica';font-size:10pt;color:black"=
>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:black;font:10pt 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif">
<div> <span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-s=
ize: small;">Damned right, my 1300 small-crank has always had a single row =
chain, for that reason, that double-row setup is heavy.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">At 6-8 hour TBO, the chain & tensioner were routine replace=
ment anyhow.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Also not all chains & tensioners are created equal, some ve=
ndors are now offering quality chains as an option, and the tensioners shou=
ld be plated, they last a lot longer.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Glen<br>
</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;"></span><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica';font-size:10pt;color:black"=
><blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid blue;padding-left:3px">heavy as=
s double chain set up?? </blockquote></div>
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica';font-size:10pt;color:black"=
>-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
From: Rick Parent via Fot <fot@autox.team.net><br clear=3D"none">
To: fot <fot@autox.team.net>; Mathieu W. Huovinen <maddhatt69@aol.=
com>; Robert Lang <robertlangtr6@yahoo.com><br clear=3D"none">
Sent: Tue, Nov 26, 2019 9:28 am<br clear=3D"none">
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:'helvetica neue' , 'helvetica' , 'arial' , sans-s=
erif;font-size:16px">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">That's about normal, why in the sam hell are you using tha=
t heavy ass double chain set up?? Come on man get it together.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
</div>
<div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:'helvetica neue' , 'helvetica' , 'arial' , sans-s=
erif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
=20
=20
<div>
<div>
On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 08:29:26 AM EST, Robert =
Lang via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:'helvetica neue' , 'helvetica' , 'arial' , sans-s=
erif;font-size:13px">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - They usually "jump" a tooth on overrun, or at least t=
hat's my experience. Or it can happen on a backfire... I had a Pontiac with=
a V8 back in the day. The exhaust pipe broke before the muffler, so it had=
a really kool rumble sound. I used to take it out at night and drive exit =
ramps at "stupid speed" and then downshift the auto trans one gear to get t=
he koolest sound... not to mention "power-off oversteer". Drift City.=
After one of these excursions, the engine became very hard to start. I too=
k the car off the road and sold it to a friend. About a month later, he cal=
led me up all pissed off and wanting his $600 back because he had to fix th=
e timing chain.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Never sold a car to a friend or associate ever again.</div=
>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">;-)</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">But in addition to the new chain and tensioner, take a clo=
se look at that crank gear and make sure the "troughs" don't have a burr or=
the points aren't sharp, either would indicate wear and you don't want tha=
t.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I don't recall a spec for play in the chain, but you want =
"as little as possible". If you can get the cam gear onto the cam easily wi=
th the chain threaded, that's too loose.<br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Lang<br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
</div>
<div>
<div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:'helvetica neue' , 'helvetica' , 'arial' , sans-s=
erif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
=20
=20
<div>
On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 7:54:29 AM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen <maddhatt69@aol.com> wrote:
</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob and FOT,</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I'm beginning to suspect a combination of a weak chain ten=
sioner and an engine harmonic that may have caused it. Attached a pic of th=
e play in the timing chain..about 1/2". Is that too much? If so, Ted, I'll =
be contacting you shortly. Chain is about two years old, maybe 6 weekend s =
of racing on it. New chain tensioner from Moss should be here today and I'm=
interested in seeing the difference in spring arch between the original si=
ngle chain tensioner and the new TR6 double chain tensioner. Stay tuned!</d=
iv>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Mathieu </div>
<hr style=3D"border-style:none;border-width:0px;min-height:1px;color:rgb( 1=
53 , 153 , 153 );background-color:rgb( 153 , 153 , 153 );width:100%;margin:=
0px 0px 9px;padding:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;color:#999999">On Mo=
nday, November 25, 2019 Robert Lang <<span style=3D"color:#0000a0">rober=
tlangtr6@yahoo.com</span>> wrote:</span><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:'helvetica neue' , 'helvetica' , 'arial' , sans-s=
erif;font-size:13px">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8's but th=
e principle is the same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn teeth o=
n the crank gear. If the crank gear has really sharp teeth, the gear =
is probably worn. Note that this is really easy to overlook. And I've had t=
his problem with TR6 engines a couple of times. Especially if you sourced t=
he inexpensive gears. Seems like the hardening of the metal is wrong on som=
e of the parts out there.<br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">That said, the numbers look like you jumped more than one =
tooth. If the "jump" occurred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degree=
s (360/21 teeth). Your mention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more li=
ke more than 34 degrees or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 -=
good, 121 - not good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have s=
een engines run with more than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poor=
ly!</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'd=
just replace it along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain tens=
ioners seem to be not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly r=
apidly.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the =
process.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Lang</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">339-927-4489<br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
</div>
<div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:'helvetica neue' , 'helvetica' , 'arial' , sans-s=
erif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
=20
=20
<div>
<div>
On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch=
:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'arial'">Fellas,
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Sounds like we have the bearing cap strap issue resolved...who is up f=
or another mystery? Has anyone ever has their timing chain skip a tooth??</=
div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Poin=
t. Triumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running =
well all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for t=
he to set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden t=
he car just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the sid=
e of the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrton=
ix distributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertr=
onix. I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in =
a new coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. No=
t even a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery f=
rom trying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar bat=
tery from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot=
battery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I=
even pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make=
sure I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next =
day (this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70/70/70. What=
the heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timing. =
I spent the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. Got =
home, car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timing ch=
ain cover. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rockers a=
nd set dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam sheet sa=
ys where #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial indica=
tor. Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150ish =
degrees past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I had we=
nt right past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rotated =
camshaft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set the=
chain back on...about one tooth Put rockers back on and checked comp=
ression on #1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down to =
yell art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put it b=
ack together. </div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain "float" at high revs? Thank-you =
in advance for any input!</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>V/r,</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Mathieu Huovinen</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D=
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