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Rear drive suspension setup opinions wanted (long story before

To: autox@autox.team.net
Subject: Rear drive suspension setup opinions wanted (long story before
From: GSMnow@aol.com
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 01:38:45 EDT
Setting up my car is certainly been a learning experience. Since I run in 
Street Mod, it is close to anything goes. Many people can look at what others 
are doing, and do about the same on their cars, but I have not run into 
anyone else pushing my type of car to the levels I am at. 

My car is a 1983 Toyota Celica GT-S with the semi trailing arm (IRS) rear 
suspension, and basic struts up front. Most of the books say the camber and 
toe curve are pretty bad on this type of suspension and to make it handle it 
has to be really stiff to limit motion. 

I actually do drive my car on the street, and in fact, it will be driven all 
the way to Topeka, and back to Chicago. So I have it stiff, but not rock 
hard. The car weighed in at 2677 at the Peru tour. The distribution was 52.5% 
front and 51% left with me in the car. This is very good balance for a front 
engine rear drive car. I have 325 lb.in front spring which give almost that 
as the true wheel rate (the struts are nearly vertical) This gives a firm 
ride, while still taking bumps with some composure. I have a bit over 2 
inches of compresion left before the bump stops touch. If the corner weight 
was doubled, it would just touch. The stops has about 3/4 inch of compression 
before it become rock solid. I have only hit it that hard once, it was a bad 
pot hole on the outside tire in a hard turn, over 1.2 G's reported by GEEZ. 
My rear springs give a wheel rate of about 280 lbs/inch, making the 
suspension frequency almost identical to the front. Due to the geometry, I 
have a little more rear travel before bump stops, but they do hit harder when 
they do hit. 

I was running stock sway bars for a long time, with just Energy suspension 
urethane mounts and end links. The front bar is 24 mm and the rear is just 19 
mm. This setup gave a near neutral steady state balance, with just a tick of 
oversteer as the grip was better. I think more body lean caused the rear to 
get looser. In transients, the car would get very loose. I dialed this out a 
bit with more front shock, but it would still step out unless I was careful. 
I decided on more front roll stiffness. I see all the fast S2000's, Miatas, 
etc. a;; running very large front bars, and they seem to work very well. I 
also have trouble with spinning the inside rear tire, even with the limeted 
slip diff, so this seemed like a good idea. I installed a 34 mm hollow front 
bar. It also has longer arms, so using the Fred Puhn formula, it should be 
about 70% stiffer. To lessen the change, I put rubber end link bushings back 
on it. To my suprize, the car was still loose. I then switched back to 
urethane end links, and the car was still getting loose. I got to take tire 
temps and found something very interesting. My outside front tire (the course 
ended with several right turns) was still showing hottest on the outer 
shoulder, but it was much closer than before, I run about 2 degrees static 
camber. The outside rear tires runs at 2.2 degrees negative and was showing 
dead even temps across the tread. The rear was a bit hotter than the front, 
and the car was still loose. The inside tires (right side after the end right 
turns) both front and rear were quite a bit hotter on the insdie edges. The 
rear showing this much worse. I played with tire pressures a bit, and it 
started to feel better, but by the end of the event, the car was a total 
handful again, but I think the tires went away. I have about 70 runs on this 
set of Hoosiers. I just mounted up a new set for Nationals. I was hoping to 
scrub them in and heat cycle them this week, but it was raining so hard on my 
way up to Milwaukee, I gave up and turned back. Anyone know if the event was 
effected? 

In any case, here are my questions. My car has very similar weight 
distribution to the S2000 and Miata. They seem to run as much front bar as 
they can fit. Has anyone had an experience where too much front bar on a rear 
drive car really hurt the car? Either too much push, or any other problems? 
At the Peru tour, I saw all the S2000's and Miatas with the inside front tire 
well off the ground. The pictures of my car in the same turn showed the 
inside rear tire half off the ground. This was with the stock bar on the 
front. This is what prompted me to go with the big front bar.

My car seemed to get more front grip with the bigger bar, I think this was 
due to reduced lean keeping the tire on the ground better. Going by this 
assumption, I have now put spherical bearing heim joints on the ends of the 
34 mm bar. I will not get a test autocross until Nationals now, Oops!!  
Trying to push it as hard as I dare on an empty street, the car feel rock 
solid on turn in now. Lean is definately reduced, but the tail can still be 
coaxed to step out, but I have to try not, it is no longer loose at all 
times. I have range to go both up or down with all four shocks, and I can 
somewhat adjust the rear sway bar. 

Any ideas what I should expect? What is the worst thing? Too much push? The 
car still goes into drop throttle oversteer with ease, and with 300 lb ft of 
torque, it will do power on over steer also. This has made it so I can only 
use about 1/2 throttle coming out of turns. With a little push I am hoping to 
lay down more of my power. 

Just in case, I am bringing 2 sets of softer end links as well as the stock 
front bar. If the car totally sucks on the first day, I can switch it back 
for the second day. I was only .2 seconds out of the trophies on a two day 
total at Peru, and that was having to baby it out of the turns to keep from 
spinning out.

Oh well, I am really looking forward to flogging my car around Topeka. So far 
it looks like I might have the oldest car in SM. With 46 SM cars (not 
counting the STX's) There is 12 trophies to shoot for. With a little luck, 
maybe I can take one of them home. 

Gary Meissner
#42 SM
1983 Toyota Celica turbo beast

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