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Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

To: dave1massey@cs.com, trguy75@gmail.com, triumphs@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
From: <ptegler@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 16:27:12 +0000 (UTC)
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: triumphs@autox.team.net
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agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'bet=
ter' than an instrument. BUT.....
Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) =C2=A0 E=
G: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Tri=
umph 6
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.=C2=A0 On most bike engines y=
ou use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs specifical=
ly designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none have a bal=
ance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross contamination ' from air flow=
 via another carb. Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow ve=
ry noticeably.

sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is '=
as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you chan=
ge the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.=C2=A0 A=
ir volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air =
AND fuel.=C2=A0 when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much=
 fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port in=
 the manifold etc etc.=C2=A0=20

You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too the =
repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case has diff=
erent expediencies, habits and results=C2=A0=C2=A0 :-)

ptegler



-----Original Message-----
From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>
To: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs <t=
riumphs@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

=20

Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at idle=
? One of those little flow meters?
 NOPE NADA STOP right there.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Think about it...you're sealing of=
f the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the=
 balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel=
 pull.=20
=20
 What are you talking about?=C2=A0 Sure you affect airflow with the airflow=
 meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb t=
o carb.=C2=A0 If you get the same reading from both they are being effected=
 the same and have the same starting point.=C2=A0 The concept that the huma=
n ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow=
 is pure hubris.
One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced at=
 idle they are balanced under throttle.=C2=A0 Be very careful when tighteni=
ng down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously.=C2=A0 Th=
is is particularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in dis=
engagement zones.

Dave Massey

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Tegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
To: Jim Henningsen <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

 ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'=C2=A0 ? Engine i=
s not smooth?.. sputtering?=C2=A0 not running smooth while cruising? An old=
 adage.... (well two actually)
 "..most carb problems are electrical..."=C2=A0 and "..most ignition proble=
ms are the carbs" Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance th=
e air flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
 NOPE NADA STOP right there.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Think about it...you're sealing of=
f the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the=
 balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel=
 pull. I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from tun=
ing more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel line as=
 a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up against the edge (=
not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal air... and believe me you can hear =
as little 1-2 cfm readily, but you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flo=
w!=C2=A0=C2=A0 Years ago I actually gave away my flow gauges. Eons ago..I g=
ot so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to replace mine after thr=
ee rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had the same issue...smooth spee=
d cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the choke out and it ran fine, but ha=
d to push it in at closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds=
 of messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail.=C2=A0 Than one day =
at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big round K&=
Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed off with duct =
tape.=C2=A0 In the end, the problem was incorrect vacuum effects ...not eno=
ugh air velocity when the piston was mid/down as there was no restriction f=
rom the air filters. hhmmm.... ok...
 http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm
=20
=20
 ptegler
 =20
 =20
 On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:
 =20
 Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testin=
g
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally. =20

Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others? =20

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A  eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
 =20

** triumphs@autox.team.net **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archiv=
e

verizon.net

=20
=20
 --=20
Paul Tegler
ptegler@verizon.net  www.teglerizer.com
=20

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<div 
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;"><div 
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed....
 especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'better' than an 
instrument. BUT.....<br>Take
 a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) &nbsp; EG: 
quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a 
Triumph 6<br>NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.&nbsp; On most 
bike engines you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the
 carbs specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most 
LBC's none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross 
contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike 
carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.<br><br>sure the 
'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is 'as is'
 when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you change 
the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.&nbsp; Air 
volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air 
AND fuel.&nbsp; when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much 
fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port 
in the manifold etc etc.&nbsp; <br><br>You need to use whatever method best 
suites your sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you procedures. 
Each case is different, each case has different expediencies, habits and
 results&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)<br><br>ptegler<br><br><br><br>-----Original 
Message-----<br>From: DAVID MASSEY &lt;dave1massey@cs.com&gt;<br>To: ptegler 
&lt;ptegler@verizon.net&gt;; trguy75 &lt;trguy75@gmail.com&gt;; triumphs 
&lt;triumphs@autox.team.net&gt;<br>Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>Subject: 
Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br><br></div><div 
id="yiv6500343243"><div><span data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: 
Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;" style="color: black; 
font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;" size="3" 
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black">
</span><div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div style="font-family:arial, 
helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid 
blue;padding-left:3px;">
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
      flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">

      NOPE NADA STOP right there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Think about it...you're sealing 
off
      the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
      changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
      other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.</div>

    
<div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" 
size="3">What are you talking about?&nbsp; Sure you affect airflow with the 
airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from 
carb to carb.&nbsp; If you get the same reading from both they are being 
effected the same and have the same starting point.&nbsp; The concept that the 
human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow 
is pure hubris.</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" 
size="3"><br clear="none">
</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" 
size="3">One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are 
balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle.&nbsp; Be very careful when 
tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open 
simultaneously.&nbsp; This is particularly important on the TR6-style linkage 
that has built-in disengagement zones.</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" 
size="3"><br clear="none">
</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" 
size="3"></span><br clear="none">
</div>

<div style="clear:both;"><span data-mce-style="font-size: large;" 
style="font-size: large;" size="4">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div class="yiv6500343243yqt2701170847" id="yiv6500343243yqt08724"><div 
style="font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original 
Message-----<br clear="none">
From: Paul Tegler &lt;ptegler@verizon.net&gt;<br clear="none">
To: Jim Henningsen &lt;trguy75@gmail.com&gt;; triumphs 
&lt;triumphs@autox.team.net&gt;<br clear="none">
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">


<div id="yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">

<div class="yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
    
<div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'&nbsp; ?</div>

    
<div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering?&nbsp; not running smooth while
      cruising?</div>

    
<div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br clear="none">

      "..most carb problems are electrical..."&nbsp; and "..most ignition
      problems are the carbs"</div>

    
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
      flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">

      NOPE NADA STOP right there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Think about it...you're sealing 
off
      the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
      changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
      other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.</div>

    
<div>I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from
      tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4"
      fuel line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just
      up against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal
      air... and believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
      you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!&nbsp;&nbsp; Years ago I
      actually gave away my flow gauges.</div>

    
<div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to
      replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL
      had the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap.
      Pull the choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at
      closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
      messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail.&nbsp; Than one day
      at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big
      round K&amp;Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4
      closed off with duct tape.&nbsp; In the end, the problem was incorrect
      vacuum effects ...not enough air velocity when the piston was
      mid/down as there was no restriction from the air filters.</div>

    
<div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">

      <a rel="nofollow" 
shape="rect">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br 
data-mce-bogus="1"></div>

    
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><br clear="none">

      </a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div>

    
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">ptegler</a><br clear="none">

    </div>

    
<div><br clear="none">

    </div>

    <br clear="none">

    
<div class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim 
Henningsen
      wrote:<br clear="none">

    </div>

    <blockquote>
      <pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got 
around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.  

Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others?  

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A  eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
  

** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" 
class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>
 **

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class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>
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class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.team.net/archive</a>


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br clear="none">

    <pre class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" 
class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">ptegler@verizon.net</a>  
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" 
class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">www.teglerizer.com</a><br 
data-mce-bogus="1"></pre>
  

</div>

</div>
<br clear="none">
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