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I am going to side with Massey on this one, because, he is almost =
correct.
For confirmation, go check any site recommending alignments for road =
track / autocross racing. =20
Here is one - http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/
And another http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
=20
(Ted Schumacher, you and pipe in any time here =E2=80=A6)
=20
Most of us want our Triumphs tuned like we are driving on a road course =
race track.
=20
The handling description described is similar to driving on a road of =
ball bearings or ice? =20
That is oversteer from too much negative camber or too much toe, or =
both, and with full independent suspension, this becomes more critical =
for optimum handling because all four wheels must be properly adjusted =
for correct handling.
=20
Tire size will directly affect the camber condition if the tire is wider =
or narrower than OE, the camber will be directly affected. Alignment =
specifications are set for OE standard tires, which are not available o =
for most of our LBC=E2=80=99s these days.
=20
Unless there are bad suspension components or misadjusted wheel =
bearings, the handling condition is completely indicative of incorrect =
alignment.
=20
I had a local alignment guy who did alignments for Rocky Mountain =
Vintage Racers, and he could set up 4 wheel alignment to handle any way =
the driver wanted =E2=80=93 understeer =E2=80=93 oversteer =E2=80=93 =
neutral.
Depending on the type of suspension, each setup by suspension type is =
different.
=20
TR250=E2=80=99s have full IRS, so rear toe / camber is just as important =
as the front.=20
=20
Front toe in adds to the eagerness of the turn, rear toe in adds to the =
quickness to rotate into a turn.
Camber affects how the tire contacts the road surface. Too much =
negative camber and you product oversteer.
=20
Combine with incorrect toe in and negative camber and the car feels like =
it is on ice or ball bearings
=20
My Stags were like that, so was my TR250. The Stag uses Struts, the =
TR250 uses A Arms. I had my guy set the camber and toe front and rear =
at the edge of the specs between neutral and oversteer handling, and =
they now ride like they are on rails, solid as a rock, yet responsive =
and predictive. =20
=20
=20
Glenn Merrell =20
+1 (303) 817-8559 mobile
aka StagByTriumph Garage (now on FaceBook)
Remember, =E2=80=9Cthe BEST trophies are: Miles on the Odometer; Stone =
chips in the paint; and DEAD BUGS on the windscreen =E2=80=A6 with the =
occasional smell of manure!=E2=80=9D
=20
=20
=20
From: Triumphs [mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of =
ptegler@verizon.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:49 AM
To: dave1massey@cs.com; triumphs@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] TR250 handling question
=20
pure rubish. Plain and simple they screwed up your alignment as it was =
before.=20
Just replacing the rack has nothing to do with alignment (other than =
initial adjustment of course) Camber and caster, alignment and wheel =
balance =3D tracking
They simply have not gotten your alignment etc anywhere near where it =
was before.
why did they say you needed a new steering rack? Recent accident? =
(major shock/jolt) over 50-80K miles of rough roads since last =
serviced?=20
=20
=20
=20
Paul Tegler
ptegler@verizon.net
www.teglerizer.com
=20
On 06/28/16, Dave<dave1massey@cs.com></dave1massey@ wrote:
=20
That sounds like the caster adjustment is out. TR3's have zero caster =
and I am forever correcting the steering to keep it in the lane.
=20
Dave Massey
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Fischer <pfischer@rmi.net>
To: triumph list list <triumphs@autox.team.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 2:58 pm
Subject: [TR] TR250 handling question
Hello, Listers. Hoping for your expertise here.
Took the 250 to a local shop for some small body repair and new tires.=20
Handling of the car has always been superb with wider-than-stock wheels=20
and low profile tires, but the two of the tires were 15 years old, so a=20
rubber update was needed. The shop also told me that the car also needed =
a new steering rack and tie rod ends. They did this, set alignment and=20
lubed the front end.
First getting the car back, the car vibrated at 70 on the highway. Shop=20
says they've fixed that with re-balancing the tires. (I haven't driven=20
it yet.)
Next, the car feels skittish, jittery at 50-60 mph, and you have to keep =
correcting with steering to keep it straight in its lane. You'll be=20
driving along just fine and then Whoops! there is goes twitching left a=20
bit. It doesn't feel stuck to the road as before this work was done.=20
Here's the question: the shop tells us that this is normal after=20
replacing the steering rack, that "the car is more responsive," in their =
words, and has "a more immediate feel to it," but they also reference=20
this as "twitchy-ness."
What should expectations be upon replacing steering rack and tie-rod =
ends?
Many thanks,
Pat Fischer
** triumphs@autox.team.net **
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dave1massey@cs.com
=20
_____ =20
** triumphs@autox.team.net **
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler@verizon.net
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I am going to side with Massey on this one, because, he is almost =
correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>For confirmation, go check any site recommending alignments for road =
track / autocross=C2=A0 racing.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Here is one - <a =
href=3D"http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/";>http://winhpde.com/track-ali=
gnment/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>And =C2=A0another =
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>(Ted Schumacher, you and pipe in any time here =
=E2=80=A6)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Most of us want our Triumphs tuned like we are driving on a =
road=C2=A0 course race track.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The handling description described =C2=A0is similar to driving on a =
road of ball bearings or ice?=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>That is oversteer from too much negative camber or too much toe, or =
both, and with full independent suspension, this becomes more critical =
for optimum handling because all four wheels must be properly adjusted =
for correct handling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Tire size will directly affect the camber condition if the tire is =
wider or narrower than OE, the camber will be directly affected.=C2=A0 =
Alignment specifications are set for OE standard tires, which are not =
available o for most of our LBC=E2=80=99s these =
days.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Unless there are bad suspension components or misadjusted wheel =
bearings, =C2=A0the handling condition is completely indicative =C2=A0of =
incorrect alignment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I had a local alignment guy who did alignments for Rocky Mountain =
Vintage Racers, and he could set up 4 wheel alignment to handle any way =
the driver wanted =E2=80=93 understeer =E2=80=93 oversteer =E2=80=93 =
neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Depending on the type of suspension, each setup by suspension type is =
different.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>TR250=E2=80=99s have full IRS, so rear toe / camber is just as =
important as the front. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Front toe in adds to the eagerness of the turn, rear toe in adds to =
the quickness to rotate into a turn.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Camber affects how the tire contacts the road surface.=C2=A0 Too much =
negative camber and you product oversteer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Combine with incorrect toe in and negative camber and the car feels =
like it is on ice or ball bearings<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>My Stags were like that, so was my TR250. =C2=A0The Stag uses Struts, =
the TR250 uses A Arms. =C2=A0I had my guy set the camber and toe front =
and rear at the edge of the specs between neutral and oversteer =
handling, and they now ride like they are on rails, solid as a rock, yet =
responsive and predictive. =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Glenn Merrell=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>+1 (303) 817-8559 mobile<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>aka StagByTriumph Garage (<i>now on =
FaceBook</i>)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Remember, =E2=80=9Cthe BEST trophies are: Miles on the Odometer; =
Stone chips in the paint; and DEAD BUGS on the windscreen =E2=80=A6 with =
the occasional smell of manure!=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Triumphs [mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>ptegler@verizon.net<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:49 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> dave1massey@cs.com; =
triumphs@autox.team.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] TR250 handling =
question<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>pu=
re rubish. Plain and simple they screwed up your alignment as it was =
before. <br>Just replacing the rack has nothing to do with alignment =
(other than initial adjustment of course) Camber and caster, alignment =
and wheel balance =3D tracking<br>They simply have not gotten your =
alignment etc anywhere near where it was before.<br><br>why did they say =
you needed a new steering rack? Recent accident? (major =
shock/jolt) over 50-80K miles of rough roads since last serviced? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Pa=
ul Tegler<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.teglerizer.com";>www.teglerizer.com</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>On=
06/28/16, Dave<<a =
href=3D"mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";>dave1massey@cs.com</a><span =
class=3Dmisspelled>></dave1massey@ =
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>T=
hat sounds like the caster adjustment is out. TR3's have zero =
caster and I am forever correcting the steering to keep it in the =
lane.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o=
:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>D=
ave Massey</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o=
:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o=
:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-=
----Original Message-----<br>From: Pat Fischer <<a =
href=3D"mailto:pfischer@rmi.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">pfischer@rmi.net</a>><br>To: triumph list list =
<<a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>><br>Sent: Mon, Jun 27, =
2016 2:58 pm<br>Subject: [TR] TR250 handling question<br><br>Hello, =
Listers. Hoping for your expertise here.<br><br>Took the 250 to a local =
shop for some small body repair and new tires. <br>Handling of the car =
has always been superb with wider-than-stock wheels <br>and low profile =
tires, but the two of the tires were 15 years old, so a <br>rubber =
update was needed. The shop also told me that the car also needed <br>a =
new steering rack and tie rod ends. They did this, set alignment and =
<br>lubed the front end.<br><br>First getting the car back, the car =
vibrated at 70 on the highway. Shop <br>says they've fixed that with =
re-balancing the tires. (I haven't driven <br>it yet.)<br><br>Next, the =
car feels skittish, jittery at 50-60 mph, and you have to keep =
<br>correcting with steering to keep it straight in its lane. You'll be =
<br>driving along just fine and then Whoops! there is goes twitching =
left a <br>bit. It doesn't feel stuck to the road as before this work =
was done. <br>Here's the question: the shop tells us that this is normal =
after <br>replacing the steering rack, that "the car is more =
responsive," in their <br>words, and has "a more immediate =
feel to it," but they also reference <br>this as =
"twitchy-ness."<br><br>What should expectations be upon =
replacing steering rack and tie-rod ends?<br><br>Many thanks,<br><br>Pat =
Fischer<br><br><br><br><br>** <a =
href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.team.net</a> =
**<br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html";>http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive";>http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>F=
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