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Interesting approach, Randall. Eliminate the possibility of a valve guide p=
roblem by installing seals. If the smoke clears, it's a problem with the gu=
ides, if it doesn't look to the rings. =20
Seems like a reasonable place to start,
Dave H.
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 17, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <Randall.Reihing@utoledo=
.edu> wrote:
>=20
> The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can he=
lp, not to criticize anyone.=20
>=20
> I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve sea=
ls sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay d=
own a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyin,=
all it takes is a small aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into on=
e of the exhaust tubes and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will gen=
erate. Our company once had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the r=
eps. One of those smoked so bad it was cited, while parked, by local police f=
or creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was generating. Turned out t=
o be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced with new Perfect Circle=
valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say it is not the oil ri=
ngs causing the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive=
, easiest area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down=
the engine to check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, wit=
hout having to remove the head, and it still smokes then for sure the next s=
tep is the valve guides and maybe the rings.=20
>=20
> Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA Cl=
ubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big AirVen=
ture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and the p=
ilot made an emergency landing. The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic=
rating there is) examined the aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil p=
ressure gauge. The pilot, in a surplus of well understood caution, politely d=
ecided that was not possible, had the entire right engine removed, crated, a=
nd shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was fine with n=
o oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later, reinstalled a=
nd when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine indicated zero=
oil pressure. That was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the p=
ilot departed, did a low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we to=
ok photos and waved back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading tow=
ard Canada and the route home to England. Unfortunately, he missed the airsh=
ow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could have at least tried c=
hecking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if it was faulty, befo=
re he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There are times when it is=
valid to check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the c=
ure and if it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty.=20
>=20
> These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP supercharged r=
acing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vinta=
ge 1960 Triumph TR3A's.=20
> From: Triumphs [triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net] on behalf of Geo Hahn [ah=
wahneetr@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM
> To: Rye Livingston
> Cc: Triumphs
> Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues
>=20
> I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil rin=
g (overlapped instead of end-to-end). Sure sounds like that again since lea=
k down and compression tests reveal nothing.
>=20
> I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue smo=
ke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.
>=20
> Geo
>=20
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston <ryel@mac.com> wrote:
>> The mystery continues.
>>=20
>> First off my bad. It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white. It's burning o=
il not water.
>>=20
>> So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to nor=
mal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like p=
olice had been throwing out tear gas canisters. Your comment was if it ling=
ers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus s=
econds as it was rolling down the street.
>>=20
>> Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test. Rotated the engine to g=
et each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition=
, then put 100 psi into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #=
2 held steady at 95psi. No issues uncovered.
>>=20
>> Next was a compression test. Engine still warm, throttle wide open, all f=
our came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.
>>=20
>> So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're getti=
ng good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.
>>=20
>> Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had b=
een serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine. The machine s=
hop tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked everythi=
ng out - supposedly. I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides w=
ere all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to ba=
d valve guides.
>>=20
>> Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleev=
es and pistons are all new.
>>=20
>> I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem b=
efore dismantling it.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Rye
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>> seconded...
>>> blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usu=
ally white.
>>> If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a mome=
nt or three.... its oil
>>>=20
>>> ptegler
>>>=20
>>>> On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:
>>>> Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant. On my TR4 e=
ngine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds o=
f white smoke. After several head gasket changes I finally realized that th=
e new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings di=
dn't seat. This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out t=
he exhaust. Result was white smoke.
>>>>=20
>>>> So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings=
would seal?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <ccsimonsen@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>>>>> Is that water or oil? Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a bl=
own head gasket and water on the plugs.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil r=
ing? Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) in the past, but=
always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no w=
ater in the oil. But you may want to check your oil for contamination.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>>>=20
>>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>>>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pteg=
ler@verizon.net
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Paul Tegler ptegler@verizon.net www.teglerizer.com
>>=20
>>=20
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ahwahn=
eetr@gmail.com
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dlhogye=
@comcast.net
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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Interesting approach, Randall.
Eliminate the possibility of a valve guide problem by installing seals.
If the smoke clears, it's a problem with the guides, if it doesn't look
to the rings. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div
id="AppleMailSignature">Seems like a reasonable place to start,</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature">Dave H.<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Oct
17, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <<a
href="mailto:Randall.Reihing@utoledo.edu";>Randall.Reihing@utoledo.edu</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size:
10pt;">The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can
help, not to criticize anyone.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve
seals sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay
down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyin,
all it takes is a small
aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into one of the exhaust tubes and
it's hard to believe how much smoke that will generate. Our company once had a
late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the reps. One of those smoked so bad
it was cited, while parked,
by local police for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was
generating. Turned out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced
with new Perfect Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say
it is not the oil rings causing
the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive, easiest area
to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down the engine to
check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, without having to
remove the head, and it still
smokes then for sure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the
rings.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA
Clubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big
AirVenture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and
the pilot made an emergency landing.
The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic rating there is) examined the
aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil pressure gauge. The pilot, in a
surplus of well understood caution, politely decided that was not possible, had
the entire right engine removed,
crated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was
fine with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later,
reinstalled and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine
indicated zero oil pressure. That
was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the pilot departed, did a
low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we took photos and waved
back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading toward Canada and the
route home to England. Unfortunately,
he missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could
have at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if
it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There are
times when it is valid to
check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the cure and if
it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP supercharged
racing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vintage
1960 Triumph TR3A's. <br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF161369" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Triumphs [<a
href="mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net";>triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net</a>]
on behalf of Geo Hahn [<a
href="mailto:ahwahneetr@gmail.com";>ahwahneetr@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rye Livingston<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Triumphs<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil
ring (overlapped instead of end-to-end). Sure sounds like that again
since leak down and compression tests reveal nothing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue
smoke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Geo</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston <span
dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:ryel@mac.com"; target="_blank">ryel@mac.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc
solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">The mystery continues.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">First off my bad. It's clearly blue-ish
smoke, not white. It's burning oil not water.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it
up again to get it up to normal operating temperature, and the smoke was
billowing down the street like police had been throwing out tear gas
canisters. Your comment was if it lingers for a moment or three it's
oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down the
street.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Got it warmed up and first did a leak down
test. Rotated the engine to get each piston at the top of it's stroke
with the values closed for ignition, then put 100 psi into each cylinder
and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #2 held steady at 95psi. No
issues uncovered.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Next was a compression test. Engine
still warm, throttle wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs.
No issues uncovered.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a
head gasket if we're getting good compression numbers and good leak down test
numbers.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head
for this rebuild, it had been serviced many years ago but never installed on an
engine. The machine shop tore it down and installed new hardened
valve seats and checked everything out - supposedly. I was told the
valves, valve springs and valve guides were all good, but now we're thinking
this whole thing could be related to bad valve guides.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Not that this should matter, but I also
installed a big bore kit so sleeves and pistons are all new.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">I expect the head will come off again but hope
to zero in on the problem before dismantling it.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Regards,</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Rye</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler <<a href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";
target="_blank">ptegler@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>seconded...<br>
blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby
which is usually white.<br>
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment or
three.... its oil<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.
On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing
clouds of white smoke. After several head gasket changes I finally
realized that the new liners (liner
& piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.
This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the
exhaust. Result was white smoke.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings
would seal?</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <span
dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ccsimonsen@gmail.com";
target="_blank">ccsimonsen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
padding-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px;
border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="ltr">Is that water or oil? Lots of white smoke would
indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil
ring? Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) in the
past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no
water in the oil. But you may want to check your oil for
contamination.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
padding-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px;
border-left-style:solid">
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset target="_blank"></fieldset><br>
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap!important">** <a
href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
target="_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **
Archive: <a href="http://www.team.net/archive";
target="_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a>
Forums: <a href="http://www.team.net/forums";
target="_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div>-- <br>
Paul Tegler <a href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";
target="_blank">ptegler@verizon.net</a> <a
href="http://www.teglerizer.com"; target="_blank">www.teglerizer.com</a></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
** <a href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
target="_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
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target="_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span></span><br><span>** <a
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