Pete et.al. This thread has really grown from what I imagined it would be.
Thanks for calling this to my attention. ( And giving me something to do.
Ha!)
In a message dated 97-08-29 13:55:02 EDT, dfullam@albany.net (Pete and Dianne
Fullam) writes:
> My TR4 (CT19207L) is an early '63. It has what appear to be TR3A/B seat
> frames, but with thicker upholstery on the backs. The back of the
passenger
> seat pivots forward. The driver's seat is rigid. The seat cushions have
> rounded corners at the front and a different pattern than the TR3 seats.
> Moss has a correct reupholstery kit for these seats, BTW.
Right, and it appears that Victoria Brit does also. Your comm# is between
the two numbers which kept coming up as I was researching the time when the
seats changed. So we are getting somewhere.
> I remember the square back seats appearing late in '63, presumably for the
> '64 model year. I believe these seats carried thru the TR4As.
Again I think you are in the ballpark. (first car in '63 was around CT18605
- first car in '64 was CT28709). These numbers are important because of what
I have found. It has been my experience that "model year" means little in
these matters. The comm# is a better reference - then we can always match a
"model year." See below for the results of my further research.
Following what Pete is saying it appears that Piggott is probably correct as
far as "tilting" capability, but maybe incorrect as far as the change to the
squarer seat frame. Piggott does not differentiate among the various padding
and cover changes on the older, rounder frames. We can be certain that the
padding and the covers changed when the newer, squarer frames came in. To
try to make this whole thing more clear, let's start with a review. As I
said in my first e-mail (which was based on Piggott) ---
The earlier seats (up to CT15076) had the same seat frame as the TR3A\B.
Then there was a change - the seat frames were squarer and instead of
rotating just the backs forward, the whole seat tilted - but this was just on
the "driver's" side. At CT20925, both seats tilted forward. I am pretty
sure that the seat FRAMES remained the same after CT15076 and through the
TR4A's.
Again - the above e-mail was based on Piggott -- BUT both the VB and Moss
catalogues show a different comm#' for the changes. So I did some more of
the research needed to clear this up.
To date what I have been able to determine is:
A) ACCORDING TO PIGGOTT -- Three types of FRAMES existed:
Type 1) for TR2,TR3 - one piece, rounded corners on back and seat. No tilt
capability.
Type 2) for later TR3A/B (after TS8637) and early TR4 - two piece (a bottom
and a back), rounded corners with folding (tilting) back on passenger's side
for the TR3's and tilting back on driver's side for the TR4's.
Type 3) at TR4 CT15076 - change to one piece, squarer, whole seat tilts
forward on driver's side. Then from around CT 20925 both seats tilt forward.
PROBLEM is that Vic Brit and Moss show the older, rounder (type2) frame
lasting until CT20877 and their catalogues do not show whether the driver or
passenger seat backs tilted forward. However, Piggott, VB and Moss agree
that the final squarer (type3) FRAME continued through the TR4A's and
TR250's.
So, it appears that there were three frames in all - one type for the early
TR2/3s, a 2nd type for the late TR3A/Bs and two types (the 1st one being type
2 above) for the TR4's. As to exactly when the TR4 frames changed to the
squarer (type3) we do know a few things.
"Early" TR4's had the same seats (round w/ tilt) as the late TR3's.
Somewhere after TR4 CT15076 (Piggott) but definitely after CT20887 (VB and
Moss) the seat frames changed to the squarer type. These frames continued
through the TR4, TR4A, and TR250.
The next problem is that various padding configurations existed throughout
the whole seat range. (Of course the padding is what you see when you look
at the seats.) So let's see what the padding was.
1) TR2/TR3/3A/3B(i.e. rounded seats) - not my area of expertise. There were
changes and I'm sure some TR3 folks will take this on. We all know how "the
list" works. :-)
BUT the "early" (read '61-'62) TR4 padding and cover design (according to
Piggott, Vic Brit and Moss) was the same padding and cover design as the
final TR3A/B padding and cover.
2) At TR4 CT15076 (according to Piggott), the new squarer frame came in and
so different padding was used -BUT according to VB and Moss, although there
WAS new padding and cover design around this time (they say CT15273), the
frame remained the older rounded frame until CT20877 when (VB and Moss) the
squarer frame came in and a different new padding was introduced. (Piggott
says that at CT 20925 both seats of the new squarer frame tilted forward; but
he makes no comment about padding or cover design at that point). In any
case, this makes sense - new padding would have had to be designed for the
new squarer frame whenever that frame was introduced.
3) Later TR4 (From CT 15076 according to Piggott or CT 20877 according to VB
and Moss) had new padding (aha - maybe Piggot does not pick up the fact that
although the padding changed between CT 15076 and CT 20925 the frame was
the same rounder one; again he does not specifically discuss padding or
covers).
In any event they all seem to agree that the frame and padding was the same
from around CT20877 (VB and Moss) or CT 20925 (Piggott) through the end of
the TR4 run at CT 40304.
The TR4A's and TR250's used the same frame but changed the padding and cover
design. (That is a whole other area for TR4A/250 folks to research).
So the simple answer to the original question (which was "What seats are
proper for CT31043") - which started all this --
"Hang on, boys and girls!"
IS:
CT 31043L has the squarer seat frames and the last TR4 padding configuration
(vertical ribs go to the top of the seat back). All refrences (Piggott, VB,
and Moss) agree on this - as does my car, CT33118L, which I KNOW is original.
(BTW Piggott's book has a good photo of those seats on p.83 and left photo
p.84).
We now need to take it from there (Bruce et. al.- did you get this far) and
figure out when the other earlier changes occurred in the seat frames and the
padding for the TR4 run.
Hope this serves to clear rather than muddy the waters. Cheers.
Art Kelly '64 TR4 CT33118L (built 14May64 - delivered to me 11Jun64 at
Coventry)
VTR TR4 vehicle consultant
|