In the analogy (below) given... you used two different
balls (round example) then you compared patch shape change using a football.
Unless you have a WIDER football to compare (like the round balls)
your analysis is void and incomplete.
A wider tire gives a larger contact patch as compared to a tire
of similar circumference (not OD...circumference) that is narrower... period!
Now,.... as to which gives better traction in snow! Neither can claim that
title specifically
with a complex and intermingled variety of variables affecting this point,
TREAD PATTERN plays the biggest role...and even then...varies greatly, because
not on ALL types of snow pack on the road are the same.
...just more confusion to an already stupidly extended thread.
(ROTFLMAO over all this guesstimating being spewed as facts.)
:-)
Paul Tegler
OBie - '73 BGT - Daily Driver
http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/ob_description.htm
Rat -'80 Spitfire - fledgling recently left the nest
http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/spit80.htm
Punkin' - '78 Spitfire - in Superb Shape!
http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/spit78.htm
Lil' Greenee - '73 RWA Midget - finally home
http://www.teglerizer.com/midgetstuff/index.html
email: wizardz@toad.net http://www.teglerizer.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Heim <mvheim@studiolimage.com>
Cc: MG List <mgs@autox.team.net>
Date: Monday, December 20, 1999 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Going to look [now tire contact patch]
Paul Hunt had this to say:
>What do you say happens to the patch then? Take two tyres, identical except
>that one is twice the width of the other. Forget different pressures,
>different sidewall construction etc that's just chaff. For the patch to
>stay the same size the wider tyre would have a patch that was half the
>length of the narrower tyre.
That is precisely what I am saying. And Road & Track in its tire testing
articles makes that exact point. I was just leafing through a friend's
copy of "The MGB Survival Guide", and I noticed that the author also made
this point in the section on Performance Modifications. I admit it is
counterintuitive, but it makes sense if you consider the physics of gas
pressures.
>Are you saying that this is accounted for by
>the different squish of each tyre? No way.
Well, think of a spherical inflated object, like a soccer ball. Press it
down with your hand against a glass tabletop, and observe the contact
patch area (which, of course, will be circular). Press harder, and the
patch area increases. Inflate the ball to a higher pressure, and it takes
more force to achieve the same patch area. Let air out of the ball, and
it takes less force to achieve the same patch area.
Now use an oblong ball, like an American football (or rugby football).
Everything works exactly the same, except that the contact patch is a
different shape. But given the same inflation pressure, and the same hand
pressure pressing on the ball, the area of the contact patch will be
exactly the same.
Well, replace hand pressure with car weight (a constant). Keep inflation
pressure a constant. That leaves you with the same area tire contact
patch *regardless of the shape of the tire*. Width, circumference, and
tire aspect ratio are non-factors.
>Why else do high-performance
>cars have wider tyres? You could say it is just for show, but single-seat
>competition cars like Grand Prix cars don't do anything for show and they
>have massively wide rear tyres - wider tyre = more grip because it has a
>wider patch. In fact recent Grand Prix rule changes have reduced the
>maximum allowable tyre width in an attempt to reduce cornering speeds -
>narrower tyre = less grip.
Now you're getting closer. Obviously, it isn't "just for show", as the
evolution of tire profiles over the last fifty years in relentless
competition has demonstrated. But we have just demonstrated that tire
width or aspect ratio has *no* effect on contact patch area. What does
this mean? It means that *contact patch area is NOT the determining
factor in grip*. You are correct in saying, "wider tyre = more grip". The
misconception is that more grip is a result of a larger contact patch. It
isn't.
>For further confirmation of 'narrower tyre gives more grip in snow' (if any
>were needed) see also film of World Rally cars on dry tarmac and snow - dry
>tarmac = wide tyres, snow = narrow tyres.
>
Of course, I was never arguing this point. I was merely pointing out that
contact patch area is not the determining factor. Otherwise the logical
extreme for snow tires would be close to *zero* contact patch, using
razor-thin tires, and I think those would function more like ice skates!
Cheers,
Max
--
Max Heim
'66 MGB GHN3L76149
If you're near Mountain View, CA,
it's the red one with the silver bootlid.
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