I have got you Kieth and I understand.
I guess my question is ( I am sorry if I am belaboring it ) If you took
the motor out of that 300 mph firebird and put it in one of the many Monzas
thats running out there , would it be pretty close because of the smaller
whole put in the air by the monza or would it be scary because of the
wheelbase?
I know wheelbase is good, I just wonder about the "build it like a dart " vs
"aero center of pressure " discussion that seems banter about .
George in Dc working at the computer today
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Turk [mailto:kturk@ala.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 5:27 PM
To: Dick J; George Mitchell; FastmetalBDF@aol.com;
Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com; landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
Flowbench@aol.com; fosterap@flash.net
Cc: land-speed@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: Ballast & Handling
You get them to allow that in the Altered category.... and I am a Player...
the air dam must be no farther forward then the front of the front
bumper...
but your thoughts are right.... Given a certain amount of Frontal area to
work with ... my goal was to think of the car as it went through the air
and look for anyplace the air would get messed with at all.... or what
would cause the air NOT to flow as smoothly as it could.... Take this to an
extreme and you end up with a car designed JUST like Jack's ... Now if I
could get Dan to sign off on that as a Production Car.... well Red hat's
wouldn't be an issue!!!
Keith ( still waiting for the folks on the other side of that wall to send
my Z piece of metal back to me)
----------
> From: Dick J <lsr_man@yahoo.com>
> To: kturk@ala.net; George Mitchell
<americanpartnerinrussia@starpower.net>; FastmetalBDF@aol.com;
Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com; landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
Flowbench@aol.com; fosterap@flash.net
> Cc: land-speed@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: Ballast & Handling
> Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:17 PM
>
> AND THIS FROM A GUY WHO MAKES FAKE ROCKS FOR A
> LIVING!
>
> Believe it or not, I followed all of that, Keith.
>
>
> Now, about the frontal area you mention regarding
> stock-bodied cars. It would seem to me that if
> you are stuck with a given frontal area based on
> stock body configuration, the best thing to do
> would be to make the nose as streamlined as
> possible to slip into the air a little smoother.
> Yet, it seems like most of the stock-bodied cars,
> like yours, have the grill blocked off and a
> practically flat air dam across the front. Why
> isn't it more efficient to continue the factory
> slope of the hood and front fenders out about
> three feet and right down to 2" from the ground".
> Imagine your Camaro with a Corvette front clip.
> Why attack the air with such a blunt instrument?
>
> Dick J
>
> --- Keith Turk <kturk@ala.net> wrote:
> > WHOA..... Guys we are losing something here in
> > the translation....
> >
> > We first need to define the difference between
> > instant center....( point in
> > the car where mechanical forces are applied )
> > and Aerodynamic Center of
> > Pressure.... They are not the same thing....
> >
> > A short wheel Base car is NOT more stable then
> > a Long wheelbase car....
> > little logic goes a long way here.... the
> > longer the car the longer the
> > arm can be where force is applied.... Longer
> > lever.... better leverage...
> > hmmm
> >
> > are the front wheels getting lighter because of
> > the Traction associated
> > with the rear tires.... hmmm sure I think that
> > is why we see wheel stands
> > at a drag strip.... at Bonneville we don't have
> > that kind of traction...
> >
> > Keep in mind at Speed we have aerodynamic
> > pressures on the nose of the car
> > as a matter of impact air... and that downforce
> > in conjunction with the
> > other aerodynamic aids we have ( spoilers ...
> > air dam's so on ) converts
> > into what the Total aerodynamic pressures are
> > on the car.... the sum of all
> > of these forces equals some amount of Force....
> > where that force is
> > excerted called the center of Pressure.... the
> > NET effect of Both of these
> > is the total downforce on the car.....
> >
> > Now if we can develop the Traction of a Top
> > Fuel car.... then I think the
> > Blow over is an event we need to think about
> > when designing a car.... in
> > the mean time on Stock bodies the critical
> > dimensions are going to be
> > length and Frontal area.... Longer is Good...
> > and the smallest frontal area
> > is Very critical.... which is more important to
> > you is a matter of
> > choice.... ( yeah I bet there is a logical
> > solution to this on paper
> > somewhere... I ain't smart enough to sort it
> > out.. I just know what has
> > worked in my case )
> >
> > Keith ( okay Dan Help Mr. wizard... I am
> > totally lost)
> >
> > I can't in my mind anyway figure out how a
> > short car would handle better
> > then a long car out of all that..... Keep in
> > mind car's like Jack's Truly
> > are like a lawn dart.... the longer they are
> > the straighter they go....
> > with less impute.
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: George Mitchell
> > <americanpartnerinrussia@starpower.net>
> > > To: FastmetalBDF@aol.com;
> > Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com;
> > landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
> > Flowbench@aol.com; lsr_man@yahoo.com;
> > fosterap@flash.net
> > > Cc: kturk@ala.net; land-speed@autox.team.net
> > > Subject: RE: Ballast & Handling
> > > Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:11 AM
> > >
> > > snip<Those long wheelbase cars
> > > reduce the weight on the front tire patch>
> > >
> > > so why would you want less weight on the
> > front tire patch if that is
> > whats
> > > going to steer you out of trouble ?
> > > If the leverege can make trouble down course
> > worse then why wouldnt a
> > > slippery small car work better than a
> > slippery longer one . Note-- I am
> > > talking Monza vs Firebird -- not roadster vs
> > streamliner--or are they
> > pretty
> > > darn close?
> > > Im just thinking wheelbase here. I know that
> > the Firebird that we ran
> > > handled better than the Monza but now you all
> > have me wondering why. I
> > > thought it was all about the wheelbase.
> > >
> > > would the center of pressure on a production
> > car be somewhere in the hood
> > or
> > > somewhere in the winshield? Meaning is it
> > where there is the most
> > pressure?
> > >
> > > Aren't you guys happy I'm working out of my
> > house now? Lurker days are
> > over
> > > !!
> > >
> > > George in DC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-land-speed@autox.team.net
> > > [mailto:owner-land-speed@autox.team.net]On
> > Behalf Of
> > > FastmetalBDF@aol.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:05 PM
> > > To: Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com;
> > landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
> > > Flowbench@aol.com; lsr_man@yahoo.com;
> > fosterap@flash.net
> > > Cc: kturk@ala.net; land-speed@autox.team.net
> > > Subject: Re: Ballast & Handling
> > >
> > >
> > > And EVERYTHING that DOES NOT move
> > HAS to obey the laws
> > > of physics, likewise . If the car encounters
> > yaw, the lengthened
> > wheelbase
> > > multiplies the effect of the air pressure
> > acting upon the leading side of
> > > the
> > > nose, increasing the chance of the car
> > getting sideways, the same way as
> > > if you held a ping pong paddle out the window
> > of a car at speed ......
> > > you might be able to hold it somewhat steady
> > at this speed, but not if
> > > it was fastened out on the end of a broom
> > handle, or such .
> > > It is all leverage. As you stated the
> > longer wheelbase does give the
> > > driver a much better chance of making the
> > corrections sooner to
> > > keep it on the straight and narrow . Those
> > long wheelbase cars
> > > reduce the weight on the front tire patch, so
> > all this has to be a
> > > consideration ..... and we' re not even
> > getting into aerodynamics here !
> > > ...... fascinating subject ...... or is that
> > FASTinating ?
> > > bdf
>
>
> =====
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * Dick J *
> * (In East Texas) *
> * # 729 *
> * C/GRS E/STR *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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