--===============1158995228766593110==
boundary="----=_Part_4582431_1378741166.1725625567563"
------=_Part_4582431_1378741166.1725625567563
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Coils don't often fail on their own but when they do it can drive you nuts!=
Point of note re compression test, always make sure valve lash is correct b=
efore checking; a tight valve =3D more duration =3D lower compression.Sound=
s like a leakdown check is next to see what's leaking; if it's in the head =
it could be a relatively easy fix...?
Glen Efinger
Unfortunately I still can=E2=80=99t take the car to PIB this year - I now h=
ave a cylinder (#3).showing a drop in compression (150 vs other 175) that I=
need to investigate - but I=E2=80=99ll be there to cheer the others along.=
=C2=A0
=20
On Thursday, September 5, 2024 at 09:36:53 PM EDT, Andrew Devenish via =
Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote: =20
Short update on my issue and findings - it was indeed the coil that was ca=
using the issue. Thanks to all that offered ideas and suggestions, I have l=
earned a few things through the exercise. Key one was pretty simple and stu=
pid of me not to realize until Jason pointed it out - O2 sensors can show l=
ean from a misfire and not be fuel related at all !=C2=A0Unfortunately I st=
ill can=E2=80=99t take the car to PIB this year - I now have a cylinder (#3=
).showing a drop in compression (150 vs other 175) that I need to investiga=
te - but I=E2=80=99ll be there to cheer the others along. =C2=A0
Thank you,=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 14, 2024, at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer@msn.com> wro=
te:
=EF=BB=BF I thought an update might be in order.Thank you for all the sugge=
stions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.I have removed and cleaned out =
the bowl/jet lines, the front had black debris, but I don=E2=80=99t think i=
t was enough to block the line, and it did not fix the problem.Fuel pump. I=
have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is well. I have now =
changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design as there was con=
cern over interaction of the internal and external pressure regulators. Sti=
ll not fixed.Could not find any vacuum leak. I=E2=80=99ve had the manifolds=
off and back on since this issue has been around with no change.=C2=A0
A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel i=
ssue. As I can=E2=80=99t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be rig=
ht. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct =
3ohm set up per Pertronix.=C2=A0I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but th=
e replacement coil was defective and had a misfire from the start which I c=
ould ABA with the old coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my ne=
w part was not theirs, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now w=
aiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.As I=E2=80=99m playing with ignition=
now, what are you guys using for signal and for coil with good success ?=
=C2=A0Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
Thank you,=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer@msn.com> wrot=
e:
=EF=BB=BF Hi Mike,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The first question is =
a good one. The car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew hi=
s stuff. However, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but =
knew nothing about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told m=
e he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case. =
(I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets with=
the float level way too low).=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I rebuilt i=
t to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little lean on the AAU needle=
s for road course, so I=E2=80=99m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless i=
t doesn=E2=80=99t =F0=9F=98=81.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The car has had =
this issue since I built it. At first I thought the obvious - float heights=
, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but while it always runs great I =
have this issues after a few =E2=80=9Claps=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2)=
=C2=A0 The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH and an=
internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had taken the=
pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap solenoid pum=
p in its place. Issue still there.I had checked both the Summit and now the=
solenoid pump for flow, there is plenty.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As I no=
ted the float bowls are full when it quits running.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) Great p=
oint - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the jets is fine when=
not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would change that when runni=
ng. My O2 is in the collector, so I can=E2=80=99t be sure if it=E2=80=99s b=
oth carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but that is possible =
as this =E2=80=9Clean=E2=80=9D condition is only for a few cycles before it=
stops - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunatel=
y a busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I=E2=80=99ve been thi=
nking it is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried=
to run autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full thro=
ttle (which I can=E2=80=99t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like=
crazy, then go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would d=
o just that !=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4) always worth a check, but it would have=
to be something that shows up only when hot.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5) yes, co=
mpression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on crank with throttl=
es open.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks also to the other res=
ponses that I received, I didn=E2=80=99t cc all on my replies in order to r=
educe the clutter=E2=80=A6
Thank you,=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51=E2=80=AFPM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer@gmail.com> wrote:
=EF=BB=BFHi Andrew, a couple of things to check.1st, is this a new problem?=
if so, what did you touch last?
2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure=C2=A0i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnec=
t the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon cle=
an/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes to fi=
ll (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using).=C2=A0 If you're getti=
ng more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and =
let it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so,=
see where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break d=
own and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines dro=
ps back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel =
pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actua=
lly sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will indicate if =
you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, mo=
re down the list for now.link to flow and fuel requirements chart=C2=A0http=
s://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Cons=
umption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
3. A problem I had with an identical=C2=A0set up, was rubber hose breaking =
down and settling into the little box shaped=C2=A0well in the carb bowl whe=
re the line to the jet connects. It's happened=C2=A0to me twice now, last t=
ime was in June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the f=
low to the jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fue=
l could get past the blockage.<IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold? With=
the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, carbs=
to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in through a=
gap.
5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
Happy hunting
mike h
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03=E2=80=AFPM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot@autox.t=
eam.net> wrote:
Guys,=20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110=
race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I=E2=80=99ve chased all the=
things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, b=
ut after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft=C2=A0 or so per up/down =
lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 s=
ensor ) and stops. I=E2=80=99m running it without the hood for these test r=
uns. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99ve been working on it a lot, so=
know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs=
look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides m=
ove freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 After a minute or so it will fire back up, but =
only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull =
out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around =
the carbs but they do still get hot.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Any ideas ?=C2=A0 Thinking to try some less vola=
tile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
Thank you,=20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish
Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
.com
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
m
=20
------=_Part_4582431_1378741166.1725625567563
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp30af5f50yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" data-setdir=3D"false">Coils don't often fail on their own but when they=
do it can drive you nuts!</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Poin=
t of note re compression test, always make sure valve lash is correct befor=
e checking; a tight valve =3D more duration =3D lower compression.</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Sounds like a leakdown check is next to=
see what's leaking; if it's in the head it could be a relatively easy fix.=
..?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false">Glen Efinger<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D=
"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br><blockquote st=
yle=3D"padding-left:10px;border-left:2px solid #0f69ff;margin-left:20px">Un=
fortunately I still can=E2=80=99t take the car to PIB this year - I now hav=
e a cylinder (#3).showing a drop in compression (150 vs other 175) that I n=
eed to investigate - but I=E2=80=99ll be there to cheer the others along. &=
nbsp;</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"ydpf7a27245yahoo_quoted_5930767845" class=3D"ydpf7=
a27245yahoo_quoted"><div class=3D"ydpf7a27245yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"fon=
t-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div class=3D"ydpf7a27245quoted-text-header">
On Thursday, September 5, 2024 at 09:36:53 PM EDT, =
Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
</div>
</div><div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica=
, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;border-left: 1px solid #cc=
c;padding-left: 8px;margin: 0px 0px 0px 8px" class=3D"ydpf7a27245inline_rep=
ly_quote_container" data-split-quote-node=3D"true">
<div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div><div id=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341"><div>
Short update on my issue and findings - it was indeed the coil that was cau=
sing the issue. Thanks to all that offered ideas and suggestions, I have le=
arned a few things through the exercise. Key one was pretty simple and stup=
id of me not to realize until Jason
pointed it out - O2 sensors can show lean from a misfire and not be fuel r=
elated at all !
<div>Unfortunately I still can=E2=80=99t take the car to PIB this year - I =
now have a cylinder (#3).showing a drop in compression (150 vs other 175) t=
hat I need to investigate - but I=E2=80=99ll be there to cheer the others a=
long. </div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you,
<div> Andrew Devenish</div>
<div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div id=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341yqtfd63152" class=3D"yd=
pf7a27245yiv9856155341yqt2610083705"><br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 14, 2024, at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM, Andrew Deven=
ish <gt6racer@msn.com> wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</blockquote>
</div></div><div id=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341yqtfd63923" class=3D"ydpf7a2=
7245yiv9856155341yqt2610083705">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF I thought an update might be in order.
<div>Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed=
.</div>
<div>I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black=
debris, but I don=E2=80=99t think it was enough to block the line, and it =
did not fix the problem.</div>
<div>Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is =
well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design=
as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressur=
e regulators. Still not fixed.</div>
<div>Could not find any vacuum leak. I=E2=80=99ve had the manifolds off and=
back on since this issue has been around with no change. </div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs f=
uel issue. As I can=E2=80=99t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may b=
e right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the cor=
rect 3ohm set up per Pertronix.</div>
<div> I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil wa=
s defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old=
coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs=
, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned
to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.</div>
<div>As I=E2=80=99m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for =
signal and for coil with good success ? </div>
<div>Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none" id=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341lineBreakAtBeginningO=
fSignature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you,
<div> Andrew Devenish</div>
<div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM, Andrew Deveni=
sh <gt6racer@msn.com> wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF Hi Mike,
<div> The first question is a good one. T=
he car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. Howe=
ver, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing =
about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told
me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case=
. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets wi=
th the float level way too low). </div>
<div> I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It r=
an great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I=E2=80=
=99m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn=E2=80=99t =F0=9F=98=
=81.</div>
<div> The car has had this issue since I built i=
t. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator p=
ressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a f=
ew =E2=80=9Claps=E2=80=9D.</div>
<div> 2) The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump w=
hich has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at =
4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I=
fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still
there.</div>
<div>I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, ther=
e is plenty. </div>
<div> As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits=
running.</div>
<div> 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel l=
evel in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet=
would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can=E2=80=
=99t be sure if it=E2=80=99s both carbs or just one. All 4
plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this =E2=80=9Clean=E2=80=
=9D condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to colo=
r the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up =
as I race sailboats too ). I=E2=80=99ve been thinking it
is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run =
autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (wh=
ich I can=E2=80=99t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, =
then go very flat, and then come back on,
repeat. Your idea would do just that ! </div>
<div> 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be somethi=
ng that shows up only when hot. </div>
<div> 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, m=
easured on crank with throttles open.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Thanks also to the other responses that I r=
eceived, I didn=E2=80=99t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutt=
er=E2=80=A6</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none" id=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341lineBreakAtBeginningO=
fSignature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you,
<div> Andrew Devenish</div>
<div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51=E2=80=AFPM, Mike Harmuth =
<ofracer@gmail.com> wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
<div>1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disc=
onnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallo=
n clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes =
to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container
you're using). If you're getting more than 20 gallons per hour, the =
flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for particles,=
rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming from. For exa=
mple, old fuel cell foam will break down
and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops =
back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pre=
ssure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually=
sending fuel down the line? The
gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these =
areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.</div>
<div>link to flow and fuel requirements chart <a shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fue=
l%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf" rel=3D"=
nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Refer=
ence_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20C=
M%20Filters.pdf</a></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose brea=
king down and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bow=
l where the line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, l=
ast time was in June with fairly new hose feeding
the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was ful=
l. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.</div>
<div>
<div><IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg></div>
</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?=
With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, =
carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in thro=
ugh a gap.<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other=
?</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>Happy hunting</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>mike h</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 9=
, 2024 at 3:03=E2=80=AFPM Andrew Devenish via Fot <<a shape=3D"rect" hre=
f=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">fot@auto=
x.team.net</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class=3D"ydpf7a27245yiv9856155341gmail_quote">
Guys, <br clear=3D"none">
My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110=
race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I=E2=80=99ve chased all the=
things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, b=
ut after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft or so per up/down
lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 =
sensor ) and stops. I=E2=80=99m running it without the hood for these test =
runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
<br clear=3D"none">
I=E2=80=99ve been working on it a lot, so=
know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs=
look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides m=
ove freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.<br clear=3D"n=
one">
After a minute or so it will fire back up, but =
only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull =
out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
<br clear=3D"none">
I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around =
the carbs but they do still get hot.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Any ideas ? Thinking to try some less vola=
tile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !<br c=
lear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Thank you, <br clear=3D"none">
Andrew Devenish<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
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