--===============8624875262530515063==
boundary="----=_Part_795139_1928519696.1585059790304"
------=_Part_795139_1928519696.1585059790304
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many times a line-hone will get things back in spec, boring shouldn't move=
the crank center more than a few thou, unless as the OP, non-matching caps=
are being fitted, or the engine has been through some major trauma and may=
have other issues.The cap is faced and the majority of material is removed=
from it until the block has just a slight shadow left right at the parting=
faces.
Yes the register for the seal housing in the block will then be oval, hand =
filing or, depending on equipment available, facing a little off one half o=
f the seal housing where it fits in the block will get it back on center.Ye=
ah excessive line-boring will add slack to the chain & change the deck heig=
ht, I've also seen engine mains & rods that were bored so much that there w=
asn't enough notch left for the bearing tang to fit, not recommended...
Glen=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Gott via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
To: Bob Kramer <rkramer56@gmail.com>
Cc: FOT <fot@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Mar 24, 2020 7:48 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Doug Still Guides Me...
Yes, Bob, as far as I know you are correct, the bearing notches in the caps=
and saddles are always on the same side.=C2=A0In the TR wet sleeve engine,=
each cap is unique as to its position, so it should be really hard to mix =
them up.Kas is right, however, in that in many engines it is good practice =
to mark each cap as to position and orientation, just to be sure.I have had=
a wet sleeve block line bored just to true it up at ABT machine in Hollist=
on, Mass. This creates two issues that must be addressed, both due to the s=
light raising of the crank center line:1) the clearance space of the top of=
the pistons needs to be checked to be sure there is no interference at TDC=
. Usually not a problem.2) more of a problem is that the aluminum insert fo=
r the rear main seal may interfere with the block. This will become apparen=
t when using the centering tool, and can be addressed by filing down the ar=
ea of the seal where it interferes. Do not file or alter any other surface,=
as this will compromise the ability of the seal to function and/or to hold=
correctly one of the aftermarket rubber seals. =C2=A0Be careful also not t=
o gouge the face of the aluminum seal where it mates with the flat surface =
of the block. Go slow and be careful. It should all work as intended.Phil G=
ott
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:36 PM, Bob Kramer via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote=
:
=EF=BB=BF
Don=E2=80=99t all the main bearing caps go in with bearing notches on the s=
ame side as the notches in the saddles in the block? Or is that just a TR4 =
thing?
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 23, 2020, at 6:59 PM, Enquiries Road & Track via Fot <fot@autox.team=
.net> wrote:
=EF=BB=BFfirstly, are you 100% sure the caps are correctly fitted both roun=
d the right way and in number order?
you need to decide if the caps are misaligned across the block or if the tu=
nnel is simply oval because=C2=A0the hole in in cap is too far up or down. =
this will need a combination of feel and measurement
if the alternative=C2=A0caps have a significant step to 1 side, so you will=
clearly feel a ledge at the mating faces when they are tightened up
if the stap is very minor, like a few thousandths=C2=A0of an inch, then the=
faces of the cap are machined down to create an oval hole, then it it is a=
lign honed
if it is really bad, like many tens of thou, then you have to firstly move =
the cap sideways by machining the register on 1 side and peening=C2=A0it on=
the other, and effectively moving it sideways, followed by boring/honing
sometimes, the bolts are too neat a fit to allow this and if thats the case=
, its usually easier to find some other caps or make them
if the tunnel is simply=C2=A0an=C2=A0oval because the cap is too far up or =
down, this is usually easily fixed by facing the cap mating surfaces and re=
boring the tunnels
not all engine machine shop have a line borer...mine did not, so subcontrac=
ting the job is not uncommon
the end result should be a perfectly round hole with a super fine hone (cro=
ss-hatch) mark on the bearing faces, to ensure=C2=A0perfect bearing shell=
=C2=A0contact
=C2=A0TerryAustralia
On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:32 AM Bud Rolofson via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> w=
rote:
Speaking of main caps I bought a block that turned out to not have the orig=
inal main caps. The caps on there did not match up with the block but I=E2=
=80=99ve been unable to find a machine shop that can machine them so there=
=E2=80=99s a round hole for the crank. The shop I had do my last block (and=
they do 427 race engines among others and are well respected) told me that=
the result would be ovaled out holes (not round) which obviously is not go=
od.Certainly there=E2=80=99s a way to make this work but I haven=E2=80=99t =
found it. I checked out another block shop but said they subcontract line-b=
oring to the the shop that said they couldn=E2=80=99t do it.=C2=A0
Has anyone else encountered this problem? I=E2=80=99ve heard that steel mai=
ns might be an answer but they=E2=80=99d still have to be line-bored to mak=
e them match. I hate to ship a block to get this done before I have reassur=
ances that they can make it work but does anyone know of that has successfu=
lly made main caps match the block? Given I=E2=80=99m spending a lot of tim=
e these days staying home and catching up on car projects in the shop I fig=
ured it would be a good time to start building the next engine.
Solutions or recommendations?
ThanksBud
=C2=A0
On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Brad Eells via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
Amici,
In typically rookie race engine builder mode with the block I selected for =
rebuild, I pulled the main bearing caps (with my new fancy DeWalt 20V Impac=
t Wrench) and then couldn't remember which way around they went.=C2=A0
This led to visions of catastrophic failure somewhere down the road. Yet, I=
had several other blocks I could flip over and make a determination if nee=
d be.
I was examining one of the caps when I discovered the faintest engraving on=
the surface of each cap:
Eng #2 Front FwdEng #2 Mid FwdEng #2 Rr Fwd
Doug Brown, my original owner/builder/driver extraordinaire had engraved ea=
ch cap for me to make sure a mistake didn't occur. He rotated 3 engines dur=
ing each season in a quest for Divisional and National Championships.
I guess that is the way a aeronautical/mechanical engineer and very success=
ful=C2=A0racer thinks.
Thanks again Doug!
<IMG_8745.jpg>
Cheers,
Brad EellsChino CA#72 FP 1969 Triumph Spitfire Mk3#35 DP 1962 Triumph TR419=
65 Triumph TR4A IRS...for the road!
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
ast.net
Bud Rolofson
Extreme Parts Racing=C2=A0(more than just a haircut)
71TR6 CC57365 (Good=C2=A06)
71 Spitfire MK IV Race=C2=A0Car #3
69 Spitfire MK III (back=C2=A0up FE engine/dinghy car)
93 Minnie Winnie Race=C2=A0Support Vehicle=C2=A0
77 Z-50A Hardly=C2=A0Davidson Honda Mini-Trail Bike (Triumph Pit=C2=A0Bike)
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
dandtrack.net.au
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
il.com
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
com
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
m
------=_Part_795139_1928519696.1585059790304
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div style=3D"color:black;font: 10pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"2">Many times a line-hone will get things back in spec,=
boring shouldn't move the crank center more than a few thou, unless as the=
OP, non-matching caps are being fitted, or the engine has been through som=
e major trauma and may have other issues.</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">The cap is faced and the majority of material is remo=
ved from it until the block has just a slight shadow left right at the part=
ing faces.<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">Yes the register for the seal housing in the block wi=
ll then be oval, hand filing or, depending on equipment available, facing a=
little off one half of the seal housing where it fits in the block will ge=
t it back on center.</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">Yeah excessive line-boring will add slack to the chai=
n & change the deck height, I've also seen engine mains & rods that=
were bored so much that there wasn't enough notch left for the bearing tan=
g to fit, not recommended...<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">Glen </font><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: Phil Gott via Fot <fot@autox.team.net><br>
To: Bob Kramer <rkramer56@gmail.com><br>
Cc: FOT <fot@autox.team.net><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 24, 2020 7:48 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Doug Still Guides Me...<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"yiv6135849125">
<div>Yes, Bob, as far as I know you are correct, the bearing notches in the=
caps and saddles are always on the same side.
<div>In the TR wet sleeve engine, each cap is unique as to its position, so=
it should be really hard to mix them up.</div>
<div>Kas is right, however, in that in many engines it is good practice to =
mark each cap as to position and orientation, just to be sure.</div>
<div>I have had a wet sleeve block line bored just to true it up at ABT mac=
hine in Holliston, Mass. This creates two issues that must be addressed, bo=
th due to the slight raising of the crank center line:</div>
<div>1) the clearance space of the top of the pistons needs to be checked t=
o be sure there is no interference at TDC. Usually not a problem.</div>
<div>2) more of a problem is that the aluminum insert for the rear main sea=
l may interfere with the block. This will become apparent when using the ce=
ntering tool, and can be addressed by filing down the area of the seal wher=
e it interferes. Do not file or alter any other surface, as this will compr=
omise the ability of the seal to function and/or to hold correctly one of t=
he aftermarket rubber seals. Be careful also not to gouge the face of=
the aluminum seal where it mates with the flat surface of the block. Go sl=
ow and be careful. It should all work as intended.</div>
<div>Phil Gott</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv6135849125yqt1630518106" id=3D"yiv6135849125yqtfd93386"><b=
r clear=3D"none"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:36 PM, Bo=
b Kramer via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none"></blockquote></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv6135849125yqt1630518106" id=3D"yiv6135849125yqtfd56598"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF</div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv6135849125yqt1630518106" id=3D"yiv6135849125yqtfd00387"></=
div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv6135849125yqt1630518106" id=3D"yiv6135849125yqtfd00079">Do=
n=E2=80=99t all the main bearing caps go in with bearing notches on the sam=
e side as the notches in the saddles in the block? Or is that just a TR4 th=
ing?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Mar 23, 20=
20, at 6:59 PM, Enquiries Road & Track via Fot <fot@autox.team.net&g=
t; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></blockquote></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div dir=3D"ltr">firstly, are you 100% sure the caps are correctly fitted b=
oth round the right way and in number order?
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>you need to decide if the caps are misaligned across the block or if t=
he tunnel is simply oval because the hole in in cap is too far up or d=
own. this will need a combination of feel and measurement<br clear=3D"none"=
>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>
<div>if the alternative caps have a significant step to 1 side, so you=
will clearly feel a ledge at the mating faces when they are tightened up<b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>if the stap is very minor, like a few thousandths of an inch, the=
n the faces of the cap are machined down to create an oval hole, then it it=
is align honed</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>if it is really bad, like many tens of thou, then you have to firstly =
move the cap sideways by machining the register on 1 side and peening =
it on the other, and effectively moving it sideways, followed by boring/hon=
ing</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>sometimes, the bolts are too neat a fit to allow this and if thats the=
case, its usually easier to find some other caps or make them</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>if the tunnel is simply an oval because the cap is too far u=
p or down, this is usually easily fixed by facing the cap mating surfaces a=
nd reboring the tunnels</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>not all engine machine shop have a line borer...mine did not, so subco=
ntracting the job is not uncommon</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>the end result should be a perfectly round hole with a super fine hone=
(cross-hatch) mark on the bearing faces, to ensure perfect bearing sh=
ell contact</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div> Terry</div>
<div>Australia</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv6135849125gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv6135849125gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at =
1:32 AM Bud Rolofson via Fot <<a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"re=
ct" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:=
fot@autox.team.net">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></d=
iv>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv6135849125gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div>Speaking of main caps I bought a block that turned out to not have the=
original main caps. The caps on there did not match up with the block but =
I=E2=80=99ve been unable to find a machine shop that can machine them so th=
ere=E2=80=99s a round hole for the crank. The shop I had do my last block (=
and they do 427 race engines among others and are well respected) told me t=
hat the result would be ovaled out holes (not round) which obviously is not=
good.
<div>Certainly there=E2=80=99s a way to make this work but I haven=E2=80=99=
t found it. I checked out another block shop but said they subcontract line=
-boring to the the shop that said they couldn=E2=80=99t do it. </div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Has anyone else encountered this problem? I=E2=80=99ve heard that stee=
l mains might be an answer but they=E2=80=99d still have to be line-bored t=
o make them match. I hate to ship a block to get this done before I have re=
assurances that they can make it work but does anyone know of that has succ=
essfully made main caps match the block? Given I=E2=80=99m spending a lot o=
f time these days staying home and catching up on car projects in the shop =
I figured it would be a good time to start building the next engine.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Solutions or recommendations?</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>Bud<br clear=3D"none">
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
<div><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Brad Eells via Fot <<a rel=3D"noopener=
noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrot=
e:</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Amici,
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>In typically rookie race engine builder mode with the block I selected=
for rebuild, I pulled the main bearing caps (with my new fancy DeWalt 20V =
Impact Wrench) and then couldn't remember which way around they went. =
</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>This led to visions of catastrophic failure somewhere down the road. Y=
et, I had several other blocks I could flip over and make a determination i=
f need be.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>I was examining one of the caps when I discovered the faintest engravi=
ng on the surface of each cap:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Eng #2 =
Front Fwd</div>
<div>Eng #2 Mid Fwd</div>
<div>Eng #2 Rr Fwd</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Doug Brown, my original owner/builder/driver extraordinaire had engrav=
ed each cap for me to make sure a mistake didn't occur. He rotated 3 engine=
s during each season in a quest for Divisional and National Championships.<=
/div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>I guess that is the way a aeronautical/mechanical engineer and very su=
ccessful racer thinks.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Thanks again Doug!</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>
<div><span id=3D"yiv6135849125gmail-m_-3422984220944576185gmail-m_239542206=
4748517556cid:ii_k83wus460"><IMG_8745.jpg></span><br clear=3D"none"><=
/div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><b><font>Brad Eells</font></b></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><b><font>Chino CA</font></b></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><b><font>#72 FP 1969 Triumph Spitfire Mk3<=
/font></b></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><b><font>#35 DP 1962 Triumph TR4</font></b=
></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><b><font>1965 Triumph TR4A IRS...for the r=
oad!</font></b><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;"><b><font><img src=3D"https://docs.google.c=
om/uc?export=3Ddownload&id=3D1HyYLxa1_Lz_Q0kLM3GRJryNDgfOwZyUc&revi=
d=3D0B9vVTDWaFCqFVmR6Q1FsMExZTHVLcHpja3BpSC9ucGcveHdJPQ" width=3D"96" heigh=
t=3D"94"><br clear=3D"none"></font></b></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
Bud Rolofson<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Extreme Parts Racing =
;(more than just a haircut)<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">71TR6 CC57=
365 (Good 6)<br clear=3D"none">71 Spitfire MK IV Race Car #3<br c=
lear=3D"none">69 Spitfire MK III (back up FE engine/dinghy car)<br cle=
ar=3D"none">93 Minnie Winnie Race Support Vehicle <br clear=3D"no=
ne">77 Z-50A Hardly Davidson Honda Mini-Trail Bike (Triumph Pit B=
ike)
</div>
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</div>
</div>
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_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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