I cannot add much to what BillBabcock has said except for this:
Prior to my purchase of the Peyote Special, for seven years I drove a Lotus
type 51 Formula Ford (I know, where is the Triumph in that?) It was
inexpensive when I bought it, didn't require a lot of money or time to
maintain and was a blast to drive. Still is. Main problem; it wasn't allowed
in feature events like the Monterey Historics. So I sold another project car
(a 65 Gerhart Indy) and found the Peyote. Per $ investment, the Peyote was
the best thing I could have found. $ per grin exceptional. The Lotus not
far behind. Were I to do it again, I would look for a special, a TR based
racer, and invest the time and money to freshen it up. I would be money ahead
of building a production racer, go a lot faster, and usually cause a stir in
the paddock.
For what that is worth.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Babcock
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:18 PM
To: 1FOT
Subject: RE: Good Luck
I haven't weighed in on this because my opinion on the matter has nothing
to do with economics, and that seemed to be what the question was about.
However, I have some unique and recent experience to share. Within the
last few years I built my TR3 from a road car, bought a well-prepped
vintage race car (Peyote), and bought a completely prepped, virtually
hands-off modern race car.
The TR3 was probably the most expensive of the three, though I really
never kept track. I built it over a relatively long period, first
restricting my changes to handling and safety, and later working my way up
through the pack with cubic dollars. By the time people started noticing
that my TR3 was faster than some modern Porsches, that I could push it
into the trailer by myself, and that magnets wouldn't stick anywhere but
the roll cage, I had a fair sum into the little cheater. In other words,
the expense of development is inversely proportional to your discipline
and directly proportional to your urge to beat the guy in front of you.
I'd write the formula down but I think there should be no math.
Then I bought Peyote from Baxter and the TR3 has languished, up on jack
stands with bits swiped for Peyote's needs. Peyote was a great deal, I
think I paid Baxter $22K for it and the trailer. People always tell me
what a nice trailer it is. I've toasted a few things in it (engine,
transmission) but that's motor racin'. Stuck in a Southwick conversion.
Rebuilt the engine with a steel crank. etc., etc. but by and large it's
been very inexpensive and it's accepted everywhere. And there's the
key--Peyote is a special, not a tarted up street car like my TR3 is, and
so it is both faster, and cheaper. It doesn't have to win a relative
beauty contest--it's homely race patina is it's very own. If I was going
to go Vintage racing from scratch today that's what I'd look for. Most fun
per buck. Wouldn't even have to be a Triumph (blasphemy!!!)
Finally, I bought a Radical to increase my track time. About $50K, and
faster than anything you'll see at any vintage race short of a 917. Eats
Formula Atlantic cars for lunch. Stops on a dime and gives you nine cents
change. I pay no attention to it between races other than wiping it down
and changing the oil. In other words, it doesn't need me.
Lessons learned--though I already knew them: We love these cars because
they are a reflection of us and our abilities. Putting your efforts into
building one from scratch is not economically sound, but it makes perfect
sense. It's fun. That what we all do this for. Making real, useful changes
to my Radical is beyond my capabilities, but getting another few seconds
out of Peyote with a suspension modification is not. So I love Peyote and
lavish attention on it, and I use my Radical like a tool and consider it
replaceable.
It's like modern Japanese bikes vs. Harleys (or more to my taste--vs.. old
brit and Italian bikes). No one truly loves their Jap bikes because they
are so capable that they don't need help. But when a bike has lots of your
knuckle skin spread around it, you have a commitment and a bond to it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Rose [mailto:lytspeed@wcnet.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:16 AM
To: 1FOT; EISANDIEGO@aol.com
Subject: Re: Good Luck
Well, hopefully, this car will have a race history in a few years. I do
plan
to race it as much as possible and, as time goes on, I will have more time
to
go to races. Besides, I really don't plan to sell either this car (the
TR4),
the TR3 or my 240Z. Older cars are the only real vice that I have and,
fortunately, my tastes (and budget) run to the less expensive varieties.
A
friend has a thing for Ferrari. One of his cars would pay for all of mine
plus a lot. So, everything is relative.
The TR4 will be a race car, albeit with a streetable motor. I will drive
it
on the street (maybe a few hundred miles a year), but it will be a race
car.
Just something I have to do, I guess.
By the way, I have invested the total sum of almost $900 so far and that
includes the complete TR4 (of which I will be selling lots of the stock
stuff
on Ebay to offset some of the costs), full polyurethane bushings for front
and
rear (including sway bar), Koni shocks, 30wt fluid for the rear shock, MGB
front shock valves for rear shock, competition rear springs, TR6 front
calipers and rotors and 240Z alloy rear brake drums, new front ball
joints,
MGB GT front springs, all new front suspension bolts, new tie rods and tie
rod
ends, and other various front suspension stuff and a complete spare motor
($75.00) and a good TR250 transmission ($100). I have had the ball joint
mounting holes milled to obtain approx. a 3 degree negative camber and I
am in
the process of stripping all the interior, dash, etc to prepare it to
build
the rollbar/cage (to be built by a good friend who builds roll cages for
SCCA
Pro Rally cars and for sprint cars).
And, I am having a great deal of fun! That's what is it all about, right?
By the way, I really do appreciate and value your input as well as that of
anyone on the FOT list. I want to have a lot of fun with this whole
project
and getting ideas from and communicating with others is part of the whole
experience. Please don't hesitate to let me know what you think because I
am
always open to suggestions. I have learned (the hard way, usually) that
others can provide a perspective that I never considered and can often
provide
a point of view that I never thought about. All I need is an open enough
mindset to consider other's ideas and, in the end, my project will be
better
than ever because of your input.
Thanks,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: EISANDIEGO@aol.com
To: lytspeed@wcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 1:39 PM
Subject: Good Luck
Mike
Understand your rationale. I simply have a different perspective
which
I felt that I should offer to you now, rather than when you are already so
involved that it is impossible to get out of the project.
You have the advantage of technical expertise with the cars. That
should help you avoid some of the pitfalls of building a street car into a
racers.
One thing that i did not mention is that when you eventually sell
a
car, it makes it easier to sell if it does have a race history. Converted
street cars are slower to sell.
Good luck.
Cary
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