ba-autox
[Top] [All Lists]

RE: Atwater questions

To: "Autox (E-mail)" <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
Subject: RE: Atwater questions
From: "Tibbals, Paul" <PHT1@pge.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:57:39 -0700
        Peter said,
(and Paul replies)
-----Original Message-----
From: Thana, Peter {HTS~Palo Alto} [mailto:PETER.THANA@ROCHE.COM]
        Hey Paul,

        If you're going to overanalyze the results, at least do it right,
        okay?:):):)

Wasn't it Coolidge who said there are liars, damned liars, and overanalyzers 
who look at the data differently that you do? :)

        -Saturday has to be thrown out.  Third runs for heat 2 were *way* wetter
        than heat 1.  
Well, OK, but wet is different than dry.  Way wetter is a smaller increment.  I 
hear what you're saying though.

        Remember STSL doesn't run in the same group as open, so
        Katie ran in the afternoon when it was completely dry, except it
        probably rained on the last run which makes that totally invalid too.
Oh yeah, forgot that STSL was a different group.  But if you just take 3 
seconds off of the Saturday times to account roughly for the rain (no, I didn't 
run a statistical check on that number) then Katie still whups me, but STS ends 
up right near D-Stock and our indexed times move up to roughly where they fall 
on SFR events.  I'm not saying of course that it's apples to apples, just 
comparing in general terms.

        -Bret Norgaard ran STX in the McCormick/Elder Civic.  That's right, THE
        SAME CAR.  
Yes, and David Avard ran _his_ STS car in STX, followed by in our group Will 
Kalman running "the same car".  Will smoked the class by 3/4 second, though it 
was a result of his huge margin in the rain, his Sunday time was actually beat 
by Kevin and Mark (and Bret) by that margin or more.  I'm guessing that these 
shenanigans were to keep these Falken-shod cars from having two drivers in one 
heat, so as to keep the tires cool.

An amusing point, Charlie "Mr. Tire Temp" Davis looked at the McCormick/Elder 
Civic after Saturday's first group and found that its tires immediately after 
its run were _cooler_ than the tires of his car which had just been sitting 
still for some time!  Rain cooling!
        -Kevin didn't look too happy with his runs on Saturday, but notice on
        Sunday he was *faster* than Ralph in the dry.
I hadn't gotten around to overanalyzing this part, well done.

        Now all this is still assuming that both Ralph's M3 and Kevin's Civic
        are really maxed out (which they probably aren't, yet) and driven to the
        limit.  Also doesn't take course dependency into account.  
Getting dizzy...must...stop...analyzing....

        So who asked that question anyway?  
Well, I hope he doesn't mind, it was Ed.  But he was merely voicing thoughts 
that more than one of us have had, when looking over STX and STS who are 
normally running together in SFR.

        The bottom line is when you have a
        class with a certain set of rules, and then you add an allowance for
        bigger tires, LSDs, and cars with hairdryers, you really should get a
        faster class.  Part of the reason the low hp, speed maintenance cars
        like the Civic are in vogue in STS is the tire width limit plus street
        tires puts a big penalty on heavy cars.  Open diffs take away much of
        the advantage of powerful cars. 

        Now even ignoring all the wonderful car choice possibilities that 245
        tires and LSDs open up, can you really say that same Civic with a Quaife
        and more theoretical tire (actual available 245s wouldn't fit a civic so
        great) wouldn't be faster?  This is why you can't base classing on local
        results.  At a Tour you begin to get a better picture.  The most
        committed drivers tend to flock to these events from a broader
        geographical area.  This means a deeper pool of talent and cars set up
        closer to the limit of the rules.   But for all the reasons already
        mentioned (weather, cars not yet ready for nationals) one Tour isn't
        good enough either.  
OK, a point has been made, and well done.  Sure, if I were to go STX to a LSD 
and 245's I would have to figure that my car, even without forced induction, 
would get a little faster.
        Car classing and indexing should be based on a lot of factors, and a lot
        of results considered by people with lots of experience in the sport at
        all levels.  And even then, you can't make everyone happy because you
        just can't make everyone happy!
Great quote, that.  I may save it for future use!  :D

        I realize this is all basically what you are saying, so please don't
        take this as an argument.

        :)Peter

In the words of Monty Python, this isn't an argument, this is abuse!  :)  
Thanks for your insights.
PaulT

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>