im just pointing out that tying up capital in a car also costs you the
income/growth potential of that money. 1996 to 2000 was an unusual, to say
the least, period for the market, easily making up for last year.
obviously you wouldnt take out the money after 4 years, nor would you buy in
at the start as a short term investment. it would just stay in the market
and produce income. i.e. a long term investment.
> you lose almost half those earnings in taxes,
taxes? who pays taxes? =) <sigh> gotta move to NV.
-james
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael R. Clements <mrclem@telocity.com>
Subject: RE: !! Re: Leasing Versus Buying
> Not so fast there. . . let's look at the whole picture.
>
> S & P 500 over the past year has earned what ???
>
> Hint: it's less than zero.
>
> Conclusion: risk is a function of time. The market is a great long term
> investment, but risky short term.
>
> Even if it did earn its historical 11 %, you lose almost half those
earnings
> in taxes, so it's really only about 6 %.
>
> And if you lower your risk by investing in a fund that provides more
> predictable short term returns (such as a MM fund), you'd earn a whopping
> tax corrected 3 %.
>
> Now do the math with real numbers.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Creasy [mailto:black94pgt@pacbell.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 07:38
> To: Michael R. Clements; Anthony Tabacco; Kelly, Katie
> Cc: ba-autox@autox.team.net
> Subject: !! Re: Leasing Versus Buying
>
>
> > > When all was said and done, I saved $5000 by buying instead of
leasing,
> > and
> > > this is estimate is conservatively low. Not a bad chunk of change even
> for
> > > guys who don't worry too much about money.
>
> apparently you dont, =) because if you had left thet $39,000 in the bank
and
> even collected the historical 12% interest, it would have paid about
> $390/month to cover your lease. at the end of the 4 years youd still have
> $39,000, not $25,000. the lease would have been free.
>
> im not even going to calculate if you had left it in a S&P500 index fund,
> bought in 96 and sold in 2000!!!!
>
> -james
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael R. Clements <mrclem@telocity.com>
> To: James Creasy <black94pgt@pacbell.net>; Michael R. Clements
> <mrclem@telocity.com>; Anthony Tabacco <atabacco@california.com>; Kelly,
> Katie <kkelly@spss.com>
> Cc: <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:32 PM
> Subject: RE: Leasing Versus Buying
>
>
> > James sed:
> > >still i think leasing is good because you tie up less capital than
paying
> > >cash. too much to consider!
> >
> > True, but you can often get a lower price by paying cash.
> >
> > When I first got out of college I was poor and had to borrow money to
buy
> > that Honda. I felt a surge of pride and excitement the day I paid off
the
> > loan and got the new pink slip with my name on it and no more lien
holder.
> >
> > When you pay cash you get to enjoy the feeling of legally owning your
car
> > :-)
> >
> > If you borrow money or lease, then the bank or the dealership owns the
car
> > :-(
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
> > [mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of James Creasy
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 19:54
> > To: Michael R. Clements; Anthony Tabacco; Kelly, Katie
> > Cc: ba-autox@autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: Leasing Versus Buying
> >
> >
> > > Glad I bought it instead of leasing! (civic)
> >
> > of course, at the end of the lease you could buy the car for the
> > pre-determined amount if the purchase price was less than the market
> value,
> > or turn it in if it wasnt.
> >
> > disclaimer: even thought ive thought alot about leases, ive paid cash
for
> > every car ive owned. too much of a cheapskate to do anything else.
> >
> > still i think leasing is good because you tie up less capital than
paying
> > cash. too much to consider!
> >
> > -james
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael R. Clements <mrclem@telocity.com>
> > To: James Creasy <black94pgt@pacbell.net>; Anthony Tabacco
> > <atabacco@california.com>; Kelly, Katie <kkelly@spss.com>
> > Cc: <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:34 PM
> > Subject: RE: Leasing Versus Buying
> >
> >
> > > My experience regarding lease vs. buy is a bit different.
> > >
> > > For example, take my '95 RX-7. Bought it new in April '96 for $39k
> > including
> > > all taxes, fees, etc. Sold it in August '00 for $25k. Paid cash so no
> > > interest paid. Total cost of ownership: $14k + maintenance and about
> $2.5k
> > > of high performance addons. The maintenance was purely oil changes,
the
> > car
> > > had only a single minor problem and that was fixed under warranty at
no
> > cost
> > > to myself.
> > >
> > > If I had leased the car, it would have cost at least $400 per month.
> Call
> > it
> > > only 48 months for round numbers. That's $19200.00 in payments. I'd
> still
> > > have to pay the oil changes even if I were leasing, and I still would
> have
> > > bought the extra parts, so they cancel out of the equation.
> > >
> > > When all was said and done, I saved $5000 by buying instead of
leasing,
> > and
> > > this is estimate is conservatively low. Not a bad chunk of change even
> for
> > > guys who don't worry too much about money.
> > >
> > > As you can see, if the RX-7 did not hold its resale value, and I sold
it
> > for
> > > $20k instead of $25k, then it would have been a break-even between
> leasing
> > &
> > > buying. This is what people mean when they say it's better to lease a
> car
> > > that doesn't hold its value over time.
> > >
> > > I won't even mention my Honda Civic (OK well I guess I just did),
which
> I
> > > bought new for $7k back in 1990. The only unscheduled maintenance it
has
> > > ever had was a headlight that burned out. Cost me $10. The car still
> runs
> > > like new and is about as close to free transportation as you can get.
> Glad
> > I
> > > bought it instead of leasing!
> > >
> > > Now I'll pass on to you the advice my Dad gave me way back when, which
> is
> > > the same advice that thousands of other Dads have given their kids,
and
> > that
> > > has saved me money several times since:
> > >
> > > If you intend to keep the car for its useful life (or at least several
> > > years), and you expect it to be fairly reliable (or hold its resale
> > value),
> > > then buy it.
> > >
> > > If you want to drive a new set of wheels every 2-4 years, and you will
> be
> > > driving cars that you expect might not be ultra reliable, or that
might
> > not
> > > hold their resale value well, then consider leasing it.
> > >
> > > The future always has a degree of uncertainty so the buy/lease
decision
> is
> > > always an educated guess. My personal experience makes me lean towards
> > > buying unless there is a really compelling reason to lease.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
> > > [mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of James Creasy
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 19:00
> > > To: Anthony Tabacco; Kelly, Katie
> > > Cc: ba-autox@autox.team.net
> > > Subject: Re: Leasing Versus Buying
> > >
> > >
> > > > sometimes cars that are expected to hold their value
> > > > well can be decent candidates for leasing.
> > >
> > > the nice thing about leases is that you know in advance exactly how
> > > depreciation you will paying.
> > >
> > > but buy or lease, you pay the same depreciation. more on a fast
> > > depreciating car, less on a slower one. typically the slower ones are
> > > slower depreciating in percentage, but are more in actual dollars. in
a
> > > purchase, you can kind of hide the depreciation, but you are paying it
> > > none-the-less.
> > >
> > > the big disadvantage to a lease is that it is harder to get out of
than
> a
> > > purchase.
> > >
> > > -james c
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Anthony Tabacco <atabacco@california.com>
> > > To: Kelly, Katie <kkelly@spss.com>
> > > Cc: <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:20 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Leasing Versus Buying
> > >
> > >
> > > > Katie, last time I looked, whether the 2000 will live or die in
AStock
> > > > (they're going to rename the classes though) depends on the classing
> of
> > > the
> > > > Boxter S. This is still under discussion. If the BoxterS stays SS,
the
> > Z06
> > > > will likely be able to edge it, if it goes to AStock, the S2000
could
> > have
> > > a
> > > > hard time.
> > > >
> > > > In response to the leasing question, I would note the old truism
that
> > > there
> > > > are only three things that ought to be rented. Propriety (and
> > undoubtedly
> > > > diligent webmasters) would forbid their mention in a forum such as
> this.
> > > > Suffice it to say cars are not one of them. I do understand that
> > > dependiing
> > > > on market conditions, sometimes cars that are expected to hold their
> > value
> > > > well can be decent candidates for leasing.
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Kelly, Katie" <kkelly@spss.com>
> > > > To: <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:21 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: Leasing Versus Buying
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A new car doesn't really make much sense. I've just been
> corresponding
> > > > with
> > > > > Brent at SF Honda. He threw some numbers at me. A lease almost
> sounds
> > > > > reasonable, except for one thing. I can't afford it. Not right
now,
> > > > anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any ideas as to how the Honda S2000 will fit in Solo II's new
> classing
> > > > > structure next year?
> > > > >
> > > > > Doesn't matter. It's the year FOLLOWING that I'll even be able to
> > think
> > > > > about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the meantime, anybody know anything about road bikes?
> > > > >
> > > > > Katie
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Creasy [mailto:black94pgt@pacbell.net]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:23 PM
> > > > > To: Clifford Richardson; kkelly@spss.com; ba-autox@autox.team.net
> > > > > Subject: Re: Leasing Versus Buying
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > if you want to drive a new car, then i see no reason not to lease,
> > > > > financially.
> > > > >
> > > > > new cars, leased or bought, cost you big time in the hidden
specter
> of
> > > > > depreciation.
> > > > >
> > > > > > -Buy if you don't intend on paying for a car for the rest of
your
> > life
> > > > >
> > > > > but you see, this isnt true. you pay depreciation. at least with
a
> > > lease
> > > > > you can get out of it when the lease ends, or buy the car if you
> like
> > > it.
> > > > > (only true for closed-end leases)
> > > > >
> > > > > however, to me all new cars are pretty much the same as the next,
so
> i
> > > > dont
> > > > > bother much with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > -james 'never bought a new car' creasy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Clifford Richardson <the_brain7@hotmail.com>
> > > > > To: <kkelly@spss.com>; <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 4:48 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Leasing Versus Buying
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Not sure how my thoughts would rate since my first autox run is
> yet
> > to
> > > > > come
> > > > > > but here goes...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My car's leased. An advantage for me is that I don't worry too
> much
> > > > about
> > > > > > pushing her too hard. She's still under warranty and after I've
> > > whipped
> > > > > all
> > > > > > the performance out of her, I get to give her back and get a
fresh
> > > car.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > minus is the possibility that she and I may become a perfect
> > > driver/car
> > > > > > combo after so many miles. Returning her might set me back a bit
> > while
> > > I
> > > > > > essentially build a whole new relationship with a new vehicle.
You
> > > > > > know...learning how that car handles, it's moods, limits,
etc...No
> > two
> > > > car
> > > > > > is ever the same, just like no two g/fs...um...nevermind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did any of that make sense? :-) didn't think so...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > General thoughts:
> > > > > > -Don't use your leased car to auto-x if you're afraid of extra
> > charges
> > > > for
> > > > > > dings, etc...
> > > > > > -Lease if you don't drive long distances and you have excellent
> > credit
> > > > > > -Lease if you're loaded
> > > > > > -Buy if you don't intend on paying for a car for the rest of
your
> > life
> > > > > > -Buy if you're gonna customize the car
> > > > > > -Lease if you want a brand new car every 3-5 years
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just thoughts, I'm sure some of you may disagree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Arnold
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > > > > From: "Kelly, Katie" <kkelly@spss.com>
> > > > > > To: "'ba-autox@autox.team.net'" <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > Subject: Leasing Versus Buying
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:59:18 -0700
> > > > > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > > > > Received: from [207.173.21.42] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP
id
> > > > > > MHotMailBD162861004540043260CFAD152A0BE50; Wed, 11 Jul 2001
> > > > 16:12:35 -0700
> > > > > > Received: (from majordom@localhost)by teamfat2.dsl.aros.net
> > > > > (8.11.0/8.11.0)
> > > > > > id f6BN8QJ04434for ba-autox-actors; Wed, 11 Jul 2001
> 17:08:26 -0600
> > > > (MDT)
> > > > > > Received: from hqmrelay.spss.com ([64.16.210.2]) by
> > > > teamfat2.dsl.aros.net
> > > > > > (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6BN8Mx04429 for
> > > > <ba-autox@autox.team.net>;
> > > > > > Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:08:22 -0600 (MDT)
> > > > > > Received: from sfemail1.spss.com ([10.10.53.4]) by
> hqmrelay.spss.com
> > > > > > (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27604 for
> <ba-autox@autox.team.net>;
> > > > Wed,
> > > > > 11
> > > > > > Jul 2001 18:08:16 -0500 (CDT)
> > > > > > Received: by SFEMAIL1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)
id
> > > > > > <3TQSVFRG>; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:59:20 -0700
> > > > > > From ba-autox-owner@autox.team.net Wed, 11 Jul 2001
16:13:43 -0700
> > > > > > Message-ID: <93456CB7A08FD211B33D00A0C99D6373701E19@SFEMAIL1>
> > > > > > X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)
> > > > > > Sender: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
> > > > > > Precedence: bulk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hey, anyone out there leasing their autocross vehicles? Can you
> tell
> > > me
> > > > > the
> > > > > > pluses and minuses?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Katie K.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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